Blackpowder Pen Gun
Hello,
I have a friend who just asked me a question to which I don't have an good answer.
He wants to build a "pen gun", but use a blackpowder type of propellent with a dart instead of cartridge ammunition. Does this still fall into the status as an AOW? I know the rules are a cartridge pen gun is AOW, unless it has to be put into the recognizable shape of a handgun prior to operation. I also know that a muzzleloader does not have to be registered nor does it have to pass through a FFL (only requirement is 21 and legally able to posess). However, I am not sure about a "blackpowder pen gun" that fires a dart type projectile.
His thoughts were this would make a good personal protection device not neccessarily to be lethal, but to provide an opportunity to flee. My thoughts are this is a very grey area that would depend on if it were classified a concealed firearm. I also am of the opinion you would have to have a Concealed Carry Permit if you were to carry it in "able to fire" condition.
Just for the sake of this question, let's leave the communist areas of California, Illinois, NYC, etc out of the question and assume we are in the rural area of an otherwise gun friendly state.
Thanks!
John
I have a friend who just asked me a question to which I don't have an good answer.
He wants to build a "pen gun", but use a blackpowder type of propellent with a dart instead of cartridge ammunition. Does this still fall into the status as an AOW? I know the rules are a cartridge pen gun is AOW, unless it has to be put into the recognizable shape of a handgun prior to operation. I also know that a muzzleloader does not have to be registered nor does it have to pass through a FFL (only requirement is 21 and legally able to posess). However, I am not sure about a "blackpowder pen gun" that fires a dart type projectile.
His thoughts were this would make a good personal protection device not neccessarily to be lethal, but to provide an opportunity to flee. My thoughts are this is a very grey area that would depend on if it were classified a concealed firearm. I also am of the opinion you would have to have a Concealed Carry Permit if you were to carry it in "able to fire" condition.
Just for the sake of this question, let's leave the communist areas of California, Illinois, NYC, etc out of the question and assume we are in the rural area of an otherwise gun friendly state.
Thanks!
John
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First, as I read the Federal Firearm laws, a muzzleoading firearm that uses loose powder and projectile is an "antique" even if made yesterday. As an antique, it is not regulated by Federal law unless it can be "readily" converted to fire modern ammo.
Next, your friend has some misconceptions about "less than lethal" weapons- which frequently translates as "less than effective". A dart is no less likely to be fatal than a bullet when fired from a gun.
As far as a concealed weapons question, this is regulated by the individual states, so there are at LEAST 50 different laws (well, 49- Vermont does not bother) However, I would bet you a beer and a seat in the jail cell closest to the door that any gun will get you arrested if carried concealed, and no license.
Finally, I DO know a couple of people that I would rely on a gun they made for my defense- but they are Master gunsmiths that have been doing this a LONG time. Give this some thought.0 -
Just to be clear: A dart is exactly the same type of projectile as a bullet or round ball when it is fired from any device using powder; black or smokeless, or any other type of "explosive". He may as well use a bullet. 0 -
So basically you are both saying:
It is not an AOW, and does not need to pass through a FFL or be registered under NFA.
It is a concealed deadly weapon and requires a CCP to have on you (depending on state law of course).
I am not debating the merit (or lack thereof) of carrying this thing for self defense. :-) Merely the legality of manufacture, possession, and carry.0 -
If you would like to send me your friend's address by email, I will mail him (gratis) a copy of IN THE GRAVEST EXTREME / The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection.
Neal0 -
There are much more effective carry weapons than that. If all he wants to do is get away, get a tazer. If he wants to stop them, get a pistol. There are reasons why blackpowder is not used for carry weapons much these days, it was replaced by something better. 0 -
By Federal law muzzle loading black powder guns are not considered firearms. Some states this varies.
If a gun is not a firearm it can not be a NFA (National Firearms Act) item, in this case an AOW.
Now with that said his idea is not a sound one, the nicest way to put it.
There are 2 types of pen guns out there also. The first is one that can be fired while the "pen" is still in a straight pen shape. These guns are AOW's.
The second type is one that has to be rotated in the middle and creates a "grip" at an angle to the bore prior to being fired. This type is considered a regular pistol.0 -
Keep in mind that just because you can make one of these toys yourself, it does not mean that you can wonder around town with the things loaded in your pocket without running afoul of whatever states laws deal with concealed carry. You run all of the same risks and end up with an inferior weapon. 0 -
Thanks to NWCID and 11b6r for attempting to answer my question. To those of you that have failed to read my question, let me try again.....I AM NOT DEBATING THE MERITS OF THE DEVICE AS A PERSONAL PROTECTION WEAPON. If we can please stay on topic, let me restate my questions: Is it AOW? Would you need a CCP to have it in ready position on your person? Would you need a FFL to manufacture/sell? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by sirjohnathon
His thoughts were this would make a good personal protection device not neccessarily to be lethal, but to provide an opportunity to flee. My thoughts are this is a very grey area that would depend on if it were classified a concealed firearm. I also am of the opinion you would have to have a Concealed Carry Permit if you were to carry it in "able to fire" condition.
Just for the sake of this question, let's leave the communist areas of California, Illinois, NYC, etc out of the question and assume we are in the rural area of an otherwise gun friendly state.
Put it this way, if you're otherwise legally able to carry a concealed gun, you MAY (but not necessarily) be able to legally carry a homemade blackpowder pen gun.
Some states issue "licenses to carry". . .NOT "concealed weapons permits". In other words, the State may let you carry a conventional GUN legally, but you may NOT carry a dagger, sword, spear gun, etc. I think there are states that issue LTCs that would NOT consider this to be a valid "gun" under that license.
In any case, if you are NOT legally able to carry a concealed gun, then you're highly likely to get into trouble if caught carrying a homemade blackpowder pen gun.
If you think that you're going to skirt the laws on concealed carry by having this gun that evades the strict federal firearms laws, you're mistaken. It may not be a "gun" so far as the Feds are concerned, but I think EVERY state in the Union would consider it a "deadly weapon".
Next issue, if your friend were ever involved in a "shooting" incident with his pen gun, you'd expect some prosecutor to rake him over the coals as being a vigilante nut job with his dart gun. Law enforcement and the justice system take a dim view of potentially deadly weapons designed to look like something else. In any anti-gun state, they'd potentially want to make an example out of him. . .not good.
In terms of your friends premise, its wrong. This sort of gun would make a pretty poor defense weapon. It would probably be slow to get into action and probably not all that reliable. Overall power would be weak, more likely than not, NOT enough power to deter an intoxicated attacker. In short, it simply probably won't reliably function as a less-than-lethal defense weapon.
If your friend wants a pen-sized legal concealable non-firearm defense implement, it already exists. Tell him to buy a tear gas pen. That will do everything this thing does, but is widely recognized as a non-lethal device.
EDIT:
quote:Is it AOW? Would you need a CCP to have it in ready position on your person? Would you need a FFL to manufacture/sell?
My opinions, for what they are worth:
Under Federal law, no, its not an AOW. State laws on this may vary. Some States have increased restrictions on black powder guns.
Would you need a CCP? Depends on the State. See above. While there probably are SOME states that would allow this on their CWP/LTC, there are undoubtedly some that would not. Getting a real legal opinion on this is also problematic, I think, as any competent legal counsel capable of rendering that opinion would probably also advise AGAINST trying to carry this. Again, pretty much EVERY state would classify this as a "deadly weapon", and that would prohibit non-licensed carry in almost every state.
Would you need an FFL to manufacture? No.
Would you need an FFL to sell? No.0 -
quote:Originally posted by sirjohnathon
If we can please stay on topic, let me restate my questions: Is it AOW? Would you need a CCP to have it in ready position on your person? Would you need a FFL to manufacture/sell?
OK:
No, it is not an AOW.
The need for a CCW would depend on local regualtions.
You don't need an FFL to make the thing and you won't need an FFL to sell it, at least not on a federal level, but state laws are all over the place on this issue.
Since we are staying on topic; it looks like we are finished.
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3063390
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