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1911 Slam Fire?

dkidcat
I know Browning was a genious and I love the 1911A1 pistol. I build them as a hobby and never had an AD-slam fire or doubling/full-auto. But I know several people who have stories about it.

I'm studying this phenomenon and think I have a pretty good handle on the causes. I always check my 1911s for "Hammer Follow" but since this problem is so intermittent, I'm rechecking my 10 or so 1911s for correct adjustment of the Sear/Trigger springs, Hammer/Sear engagement etc...

One IDPA S.O. told me it happens quite often. Another friend, while an Army Officer, was appointed to investigate a case of 1911 Slam Fire/AD with serious injury... and the same guy found himself on jury duty (but dismissed) on such a case wich resulted in death.

In all these cases, the trigger was not touched.

I'm now looking for some statistics on 1911 Pistol Accidental Discharges.

Do military and police departments keep incident reports?

Has anyone seen any studies?

Thanks!
Dale
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Comments

11 comments

Date Votes
  • perry shooter
    IMHO 99.99999% of 1911 TYPE pistols that slam fire are either caused by BUBBA working on the trigger/fire control parts trying to get a LIGHT trigger pull"that is why N.R.A. & dcm/cmp has minimum poundage on trigger pulls.#2 reason a HIGH primer on reloaded ammo. You can also get one if the firing pin return spring was missing or weak/broken however if there is a problem with this spring the firing pin retainer would most likely drop down or out and have caused the pistol to not even function.

    EDITafter reading your second post I thought I would add a few things . IN the 1930's Colt started installing a SWARTZ safety on some of their pistols .The military did not want to have different parts list for different pistols so when WW II started and some civilian models were shipped to the military these extra parts were removed and most people forgot about SWARTZ then with all the crazy DROP TEST started Colt wanted to reinvent the Swartz safety but were still under royalty obligations to the Swartz Heirs so they changed the design WA-LA the so called series 80 however the series 80 Colt works off the trigger to deactivate the firing pin block while the Swartz design works off the grip safety to deactivate the fireing pin block because Kimber had no contract with Swartz "Kimber was not in business when Swartz was alive" Kimber used the Swartz "IMHO BETTER"design. However Kimber also changed to external extractor and MIM parts during this time MIM parts Barrels gave a bunch of KABOOMS and this started a recall by Kimber If I would hazard to GUESS poorly made MIM sears and hammers COULD chip and cause a SLAM FIRE . I know Kimber would never admit to what problems they had but I know one Custom Reloader that had his insurer not allow him to sell any of his match grade ammo to people using KIMBER PISTOLS.
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  • beantownshootah
    When you say the trigger "was not touched" do you mean that the shooter didn't pull the trigger, or that the trigger/sear wasn't gunsmithed?

    Its a recognized failing of 1911 pistols (without the series 80 type firing pin block safety) that they can discharge if dropped hard onto their muzzles with a loaded chamber. 1911s can also discharge if the hammer is kept down on a loaded chamber (ie rather than cocked and locked) then struck or pressed hard. So with 1911s you have to carry them either cocked and locked, or empty chamber ("Israeli carry").

    Most police and military organizations keep records of accidental discharges, but finding the ones you want is going to be difficult, if not impossible.

    You'd have to know exactly which agencies, and which records you were after. . .not so easy. Don't forget that there aren't that many agencies using 1911s as standard issue anymore.

    Also, it can be pretty hard to compile reliable statistics of misfires and double fires and such. While the "numerator" (number of documented misfire incidents) MIGHT be known with enough work, the "denominator" (total number of times the guns are fired over that time period, may not be. Without reliable estimates of both, you couldn't really judge the frequency of misfires. Also, you have to figure that not every incident were a gun misfires gets reported or documented.

    Even assuming you could derive such a statistic, what would it really "mean"? There have been dozens of manufacturers of 1911s over the years, literally millions of guns made, and its probably safe to assume that some of these are more prone to fire control issues than others.

    How is your data going to account for guns that have had thousands of rounds through them without proper parts replacement or neglected and were worn to the point of malfunction? How can you know for sure which guns have been subject to unofficial "bubba" gunsmith jobs that were never documented? Can you be sure that what applies to (say) WWII era guns used by the US Army in the 1960s would apply to (say) Kimber manufactured guns in 2010? Are you controlling for series 80 guns with firing pin block safeties vs ones without?

    In general, the 1911 is a highly reliable platform. It wouldn't have survived as the standard US military sidearm for near 75 years if it were prone to misfiring or accidental discharge, and its worth mentioning that there was nothing intrinsic to the 1911 platform that caused its replacement. It was replaced mostly to standardize calibers with NATO, not because the gun wasn't reliable or effective, and I think its fair to say that there are plenty of active US military who would be quite happy to see the guns returned to service.
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  • dkidcat
    Originally posted by beantownshootah
    When you say the trigger "was not touched" do you mean that the shooter didn't pull the trigger, or that the trigger/sear wasn't gunsmithed?


    The trigger was not touched at the time of the AD.

    I see my post wasn't that clear. The specific type of AD I'm concerned with is a Slam Fire while loading. I agree that in most cases, this fault is caused by amateur gunsmithing.

    However, It seems funny that I (one person) has heard of several such AD's. The "degree of separation" seems very low.

    I know of 2 cases where a 1911 fired accidentally and went full auto while dropping the slide and the shooter's weak hand got perforated.

    Yes, firing pin inertial force can cause this but I'm mainly interested in trigger group issues. On that subject, I also wonder if the Series 80 and Kimber Series II Inertial Firing Pin Safeties ever bind the firing pin forward causing AD's. Every additional moving part ads to the odds of failure.

    Based on what I've read, and what my father told me, bullseye shooters would always hold the trigger back while dropping the slide. Yet they were required to have at least a 4 pound trigger pull.

    I realize there are various factors which combine to create a trigger pull (sear/hammer engagement and spring pressure etc...)

    I've heard that this slam fire problem mainly happens with trigger pulls of under 4.5 lbs. yet, there are some well respected companies making drop in 3.5 lbs. pull kits.

    I just thought that someone might have done a study (since the 1911 was in service so long) and the military would forensically go over any weapon involved in cases where injury happened. I would think they'd be able to say what specific part was most or least likely to wear out 1st and cause AD's.

    Thanks
    Dale
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  • v35
    With the hammer full forward on the 1911, the firing pin tip will not protrude from the breech face and therefore will not fire a chambered cartridge when the hammer is pressed or struck.
    That's the idea behind inertial firing pins.
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  • MIKE WISKEY
    v35 beat me to it[;)], I've seen 1911's fire on chambering a round and also 'go auto' but in every instance the shooters finger was INSIDE the trigger guard. I call this 'trigger finger bounce', you hit the slide release, the gun jumps back/then forward and your triger finger bumps the trigger....Bang, same thing when firing with a light trigger pull; you fire, the pistol recoils, the slide goes forward pushing the gun into your trigger finger= bang/bang
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  • givette
    A 'slam fire' is specific.

    It occurs when the round discharges while still being driven forward prior to the mechanism fully locking during the loading cycle.

    Other reasons for 'off-time' firing:

    If it involved the fire control group, there would be 'hammer follow' when the slide is moving into battery, whether on a live round, or on an empty chamber. It also could involve a firing pin frozen in place at it's forward limit of travel. Both involve improper parts adjustment/fit, extreme wear, damage, or, occasionally, the wrong part being installed. Still not the gun's fault.

    If there were a high primer, which caused the action to remain slightly open, a M1911 with the proper fit-to-parts may (unlikely) fire, but that would take the gun out of the equation.

    Sorry about rambling. To return to your question: Aside from getting statistics from the individual manufacturers' repair shops (again unlikely) there is no known release to the public of the information you seek. Best, Joe
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  • dkidcat
    quote:Originally posted by perry shooter
    MIM parts Barrels gave a bunch of KABOOMS and this started a recall by Kimber If I would hazard to GUESS poorly made MIM sears and hammers COULD chip and cause a SLAM FIRE . I know Kimber would never admit to what problems they had but I know one Custom Reloader that had his insurer not allow him to sell any of his match grade ammo to people using KIMBER PISTOLS.


    Thanks Perry, Interesting you mention Kimber. As part of my searches, I ran into several postings on other forums describing Brand New Kimbers going Full Auto. Not Slam Fire but I would think that a damaged (MIM) sear or or hammer or faulty sear/disconnector spring could cause doubling while loading.

    Third Paragraph:
    http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=custom1911&Number=71684&Searchpage=2&Main=56857&Words=&topic=&Search=true#Post71684

    http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=custom1911&Number=77396&Searchpage=2&Main=57681&Words=&topic=&Search=true#Post77396

    Here is a published review where the brand new Kimber being test fired by a reviewer goes full auto!
    7th Paragraph Down:
    http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/KimSSUC.htm

    I'm sure all manufacturers have had QC problems and I would still love to own a Kimber but I'd replace the trigger group parts. Unfortunately, that would void the warranty.

    However, these examples show that a factory spec 1911 can go full auto. Maybe Kimber hired "Bubba" to do their trigger groups?
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  • Seattlefungus
    You would be hard pressed to find any police agency using a 1911 type pistol for service use. They are used for SWAT teams. That's about it. To find records regarding AD's you would have to file Freedom of Information Act requests with each agency. Then, records are only maintained for a prescribed length of time mandated by State law for retention of records and they vary by State. There are no legal requirements for agency's to maintain or even report such occurrences. Unless they result in injury or death. These may be reported on a standard investigation/ incident report and may be titled or indexed as a standard "Injured person or Accidental Death" with no way to locate the record without personal knowledge of the incident. As most police agency's use standard FBI reporting classifications and the FBI does not track such incidents.
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  • beantownshootah
    quote:Originally posted by Seattlefungus
    You would be hard pressed to find any police agency using a 1911 type pistol for service use.


    The Tacoma AZ police permits its officers to choose Kimber 1911 pistols (or Glocks) for routine duty. Apparently they like them:

    http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/Tacoma_ProCarry.htm
    http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/KimberProCarry.htm

    As you mention, there are various SWAT forces that permit their officers to carry 1911s, including the LA SWAT.
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  • ColtDoctor
    Tacoma WA police have been carrying Kimber 1911s since 1998 if I recall...
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  • rsnyder55
    I'm aware of one sheriffs department that issues Berettas but the deputies are allowed their weapon of choice (as long as they can qualify with it, minimum caliber, etc) and most carry 1911's.
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