.45 "Long" Colt Snubnose, cont'd
Sorry to re-open this, but I do think I still have something to add here:
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=427185quote:Mark G
I must respectfully disagree with you on this subject. The 445T that I have has very manageable recoil. The porting and grips help with that. With cowboy action shooting on the rise, several 44 special and 45LC rounds are available. My 445 is about the same size as my Colt Cobra. Reloading will keep down the cost. Moonclips on a 45ACP can act as speedloaders. A 246G SWC bullet will knock down anybody hit with it. I also have 200G Silvertip JHPs. Having 5 rounds vs. 6 357mag doesn't bother me. If you want to talk about recoil and muzzle flash, fire a 125G JHP 357mag from a 2" barrel. Firearm availability is the only drawback I can see, but once you have one that part is over.
I don't really think we disagree.
I'm not saying these big-bore snubnoses aren't viable as defense guns (in fact, I said the exact opposite, that they're good); all those things just explain why they are UNPOPULAR, and why the big manufacturers rarely market them.
Most guns are sold to average "schmoes" who rarely shoot ANY guns, not "gun nuts" who have lots of experience, shrug off recoil, love moon-clips, and load their own ammo. For the average gun buyer, cost of ammo, and recoil are real issues.
Go try and find some .44spl or .45LC ammo at a Walmart or Dicks, and come back to me and tell me how much you find, and assuming you do find any (which I doubt), how much it costs compared to .357 magnum ammo. With .357s, at least you can buy .38s for practice.
Some of this is "chicken and egg" (if the guns were more popular the ammo would be cheaper and more available), but these are real reasons why the guns are scarce.
Ultimately, I see small big-bore snubnoses as something ideal for "gun nuts".
In terms of 5 vs 6 rounds, I think it reasonable to proceed under the assumption that a dedicated concealed carry snubnose is going to hold 5 (not 6). Even 6-round .38/.357s aren't all that small.
In terms of recoil, I've fired plenty of 158 grain .357 magnum from my steel Smith 60, and I don't think the recoil is unmanageable. In fact, its probably not any worse than the recoil from an alloy-frame gun using .38+P ammo.
Then again, I'm one of the aforementioned "gun nuts", not a novice shooter.
Most new shooters who pick up my .38+P and fire one round are completely unprepared for the the flash and recoil. I don't think a similar gun in .45LC is going to make the experience any better for them. . .again explaining why these guns are unpopular and rarely manufactured.
In terms of flash, yeah. . ..357 magnum snubnoses offer a LOT of it. On the other hand, I'd imagine that a ported .45LC is probably just as bad.
quote:Frankgon4,
I would suggest that if such a gun is desired, find a range that has one and shoot it to see just what you are getting before you buy.
Well, I agree that its always a good idea to try before you buy, but in this case, I don't think this will work. The likelihood of you finding a local range that has a rentable .45 long colt snubnose probably approximates zero.
In general, ranges rent guns they think people want to try, shoot for fun, or buy. While you might find a SA cowboy-style gun in .45LC for rent (though most likely you'll find it in another caliber), I just can't imagine even a large commercial range maintaining a snubnose gun like this for rental. Renters usually like common guns in common calibers. A range that ran into a .45LC snubnose would undoubtedly just put it up for sale.
I'd just stipulate that if you are an experienced shooter, and are seriously interested in a .45LC snubnose, you're probably capable of handling it, and ready for it.
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=427185quote:Mark G
I must respectfully disagree with you on this subject. The 445T that I have has very manageable recoil. The porting and grips help with that. With cowboy action shooting on the rise, several 44 special and 45LC rounds are available. My 445 is about the same size as my Colt Cobra. Reloading will keep down the cost. Moonclips on a 45ACP can act as speedloaders. A 246G SWC bullet will knock down anybody hit with it. I also have 200G Silvertip JHPs. Having 5 rounds vs. 6 357mag doesn't bother me. If you want to talk about recoil and muzzle flash, fire a 125G JHP 357mag from a 2" barrel. Firearm availability is the only drawback I can see, but once you have one that part is over.
I don't really think we disagree.
I'm not saying these big-bore snubnoses aren't viable as defense guns (in fact, I said the exact opposite, that they're good); all those things just explain why they are UNPOPULAR, and why the big manufacturers rarely market them.
Most guns are sold to average "schmoes" who rarely shoot ANY guns, not "gun nuts" who have lots of experience, shrug off recoil, love moon-clips, and load their own ammo. For the average gun buyer, cost of ammo, and recoil are real issues.
Go try and find some .44spl or .45LC ammo at a Walmart or Dicks, and come back to me and tell me how much you find, and assuming you do find any (which I doubt), how much it costs compared to .357 magnum ammo. With .357s, at least you can buy .38s for practice.
Some of this is "chicken and egg" (if the guns were more popular the ammo would be cheaper and more available), but these are real reasons why the guns are scarce.
Ultimately, I see small big-bore snubnoses as something ideal for "gun nuts".
In terms of 5 vs 6 rounds, I think it reasonable to proceed under the assumption that a dedicated concealed carry snubnose is going to hold 5 (not 6). Even 6-round .38/.357s aren't all that small.
In terms of recoil, I've fired plenty of 158 grain .357 magnum from my steel Smith 60, and I don't think the recoil is unmanageable. In fact, its probably not any worse than the recoil from an alloy-frame gun using .38+P ammo.
Then again, I'm one of the aforementioned "gun nuts", not a novice shooter.
Most new shooters who pick up my .38+P and fire one round are completely unprepared for the the flash and recoil. I don't think a similar gun in .45LC is going to make the experience any better for them. . .again explaining why these guns are unpopular and rarely manufactured.
In terms of flash, yeah. . ..357 magnum snubnoses offer a LOT of it. On the other hand, I'd imagine that a ported .45LC is probably just as bad.
quote:Frankgon4,
I would suggest that if such a gun is desired, find a range that has one and shoot it to see just what you are getting before you buy.
Well, I agree that its always a good idea to try before you buy, but in this case, I don't think this will work. The likelihood of you finding a local range that has a rentable .45 long colt snubnose probably approximates zero.
In general, ranges rent guns they think people want to try, shoot for fun, or buy. While you might find a SA cowboy-style gun in .45LC for rent (though most likely you'll find it in another caliber), I just can't imagine even a large commercial range maintaining a snubnose gun like this for rental. Renters usually like common guns in common calibers. A range that ran into a .45LC snubnose would undoubtedly just put it up for sale.
I'd just stipulate that if you are an experienced shooter, and are seriously interested in a .45LC snubnose, you're probably capable of handling it, and ready for it.
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Ok, lets back up a bit.
I have no problems with 357 Mag or 38 Special for CC. In fact, the first revolver my wife used for CC was a Colt Detective Special. The original question was "what 45LC revolver with a 3" barrel or shorter is suitable for CC." I was responding to that question. I did not ask about the OPs experience with guns, stature, reloading ability, etc... I mearly stated my experience with my similar weapon. I believe I have stated in the past that the best weapon/caliber for self defense is the one you can shoot accuratly and control. If that is a 38 special, then great. I believe we have common ground but are coming at the question from different angles. If the actual question is "What gun should a novice use for CC"", then the 38 special is the correct answer. That just wasn't the question that I was answering.0 -
Again, we agree. To be specific, the original question was:
quote:frankgon4 01/04/2010 : 12:37:58
Is there a 45 long colt in double action revolver that is small enough for conceal carry? (3 inch barrel or shorter).
The answer is (I think) that NO manufacturer is currently putting out a short double-action .45LC wheelgun comparable to other small dedicated concealed carry revolvers.
For a variety of reasons listed above and in the previous thread, small big-bore revolvers (eg .45LC, .44spl, .45ACP) suitable for concealed carry have always been sales flops, none of the manufacturers want to make them, and you're probably not going to find one on the shelf in your local gun store.
The "best fit" here in .45LC is probably the long-ago discontinued Taurus 450.
Another possible answer (which I deliberately omitted from the earlier post) is that you could have a short-barrel .45 LC custom built from a larger platform double-action gun like a Ruger Redhawk. This might not be cheap, and you would end up with something significantly bigger than a J-frame type snubby, but it could make a concealable package. But if you're willing to carry a larger frame gun, its probably cheaper/easier to just go with the Super-Redhawk anti-bear snubby.
In terms of the MERITS of such a gun, in my opinion:
-If you actually believe the ballistic advantage of .45LC over .357 magnum is enough to justify going this route, and. . .
-If you can find an actual gun for sale in a brand/configuration you like, and. . .
-If you don't mind feeding it with relatively expensive and harder to find .45LC ammo (or are willing to reload for it), and. . .
-If you can handle the recoil, and. . .
-If the slightly larger size of the gun over a conventional J-frame .38/.357 type snubnose revolver is OK with you. . .
Then, a DA .45 LC snubnose would be an excellent choice for concealed carry.
For some individuals this calculus might work in favor of the gun, though empirically, its not enough of them to justify any of the manufacturers keeping them in production!
quote:If the actual question is "What gun should a novice use for CC"", then the 38 special is the correct answer. That just wasn't the question that I was answering.
Its off topic, but I'd say .38 special is "a" potentially correct answer, not necessarily "the" only one. Depends on the person and their circumstances, but that's a whole other discussion.0 -
quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
Again, we agree. To be specific, the original question was:
quote:frankgon4 01/04/2010 : 12:37:58
Is there a 45 long colt in double action revolver that is small enough for conceal carry? (3 inch barrel or shorter).
The answer is (I think) that NO manufacturer is currently putting out a short double-action .45LC wheelgun comparable to other small dedicated concealed carry revolvers.
For a variety of reasons listed above and in the previous thread, small big-bore revolvers (eg .45LC, .44spl, .45ACP) suitable for concealed carry have always been sales flops, none of the manufacturers want to make them, and you're probably not going to find one on the shelf in your local gun store.
The "best fit" here in .45LC is probably the long-ago discontinued Taurus 450.
Another possible answer (which I deliberately omitted from the earlier post) is that you could have a short-barrel .45 LC custom built from a larger platform double-action gun like a Ruger Redhawk. This might not be cheap, and you would end up with something significantly bigger than a J-frame type snubby, but it could make a concealable package. But if you're willing to carry a larger frame gun, its probably cheaper/easier to just go with the Super-Redhawk anti-bear snubby.
In terms of the MERITS of such a gun, in my opinion:
-If you actually believe the ballistic advantage of .45LC over .357 magnum is enough to justify going this route, and. . .
-If you can find an actual gun for sale in a brand/configuration you like, and. . .
-If you don't mind feeding it with relatively expensive and harder to find .45LC ammo (or are willing to reload for it), and. . .
-If you can handle the recoil, and. . .
-If the slightly larger size of the gun over a conventional J-frame .38/.357 type snubnose revolver is OK with you. . .
Then, a DA .45 LC snubnose would be an excellent choice for concealed carry.
For some individuals this calculus might work in favor of the gun, though empirically, its not enough of them to justify any of the manufacturers keeping them in production!
quote:If the actual question is "What gun should a novice use for CC"", then the 38 special is the correct answer. That just wasn't the question that I was answering.
Its off topic, but I'd say .38 special is "a" potentially correct answer, not necessarily "the" only one. Depends on the person and their circumstances, but that's a whole other discussion.
Last post on the subject:
You bring up several valid points in your arguments. I believe I have done the same.
IF the ballistic advantage of the 44/45 is not enough to justify it over the 38/357, why is the preference on the semi auto side 45ACP over the 9mm/40S&W.
IF you can find a gun in the configuration you want, buy it. They do show up quite regular.
IF you don't mind paying a little extra per round for peace of mind/body, do it.
IF you practice enough with your intended load to become used to the recoil/muzzle report, it should not be a problem.
IF you will consider something other than a J frame as an acceptable carry weapon, you will have many more choices.
If you consider all of the above valid, then this might be a good choice for you. If it's not, that's your choice. Great thing about opinions, everyboby is allowed to have them. I have enjoyed this exchange. I hope everyone else has as well.0
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