Corrosive M1 Carbine Primers!
Yea, I know. M1 Carbine ammo was never made with corrosive primers -- except no one told Sellier & Bellot about that!
I bought two cases of Sellier & Bellot 30 Carbine ammo 10-15 years ago. I've shot it a number of times -- it's worked wonderfully in the past. Apparently though, some of the ammo in the case I shot from recently had corrosive primers. (What modern ammunition manufacturer would even have corrosive primers around?)
I went to pull the carbine (a new Kahr) I shot last (a few months ago) out -- there was a thick layer of rust in the barrel!
I've cleaned it well (bronze brush, soap, boiling water, Hoppes #9; repeat...) and most of the rust is out. There is fine pitting in the barrel.
I'm still getting grayish-black material on a clean patch after I run a solvent soaked bronze brush through the barrel a few times. I'm thinking this is still rust coming out of the pits.
Should I keep buffing away at it (and maybe continue with additional soap and water washes) to the point a patch stays clean after the bronze brushing, or do you think just running an oil-soaked patch through the barrel (with the cleaning already done) will be sufficient (and I shouldn't worry about the small amount of rust in the pits)?
Additionally, has anyone ever tried to deal with Sellier & Bellot customer service? (I'm doubting there is much of any "customer service" in the Czech Republic.)
Anyone ever heard of doing a chrome-lining in the barrel on an M1 Carbine?
I bought two cases of Sellier & Bellot 30 Carbine ammo 10-15 years ago. I've shot it a number of times -- it's worked wonderfully in the past. Apparently though, some of the ammo in the case I shot from recently had corrosive primers. (What modern ammunition manufacturer would even have corrosive primers around?)
I went to pull the carbine (a new Kahr) I shot last (a few months ago) out -- there was a thick layer of rust in the barrel!
I've cleaned it well (bronze brush, soap, boiling water, Hoppes #9; repeat...) and most of the rust is out. There is fine pitting in the barrel.
I'm still getting grayish-black material on a clean patch after I run a solvent soaked bronze brush through the barrel a few times. I'm thinking this is still rust coming out of the pits.
Should I keep buffing away at it (and maybe continue with additional soap and water washes) to the point a patch stays clean after the bronze brushing, or do you think just running an oil-soaked patch through the barrel (with the cleaning already done) will be sufficient (and I shouldn't worry about the small amount of rust in the pits)?
Additionally, has anyone ever tried to deal with Sellier & Bellot customer service? (I'm doubting there is much of any "customer service" in the Czech Republic.)
Anyone ever heard of doing a chrome-lining in the barrel on an M1 Carbine?
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The reason non corrosive primers were used in the M1 carbine has more to do with the gas cylinder and piston rather than the bore of the barrel. The barrel bore can be readily cleaned after use but the staked gas cylinder nut prevents easy access to the gas cylinder and piston for cleaning, eventually causing rust in that area. 0 -
What Stack said.
Be aware that there are 2 types of S&B ammo- modern production non corrosive and old blue box milsurp stuff- which might be corrosive.
I would be leery about chrome plating a bore just to shoot a certain type of ammo. I have heard of folks calling S&B or emailing but I doubt they'll stand behind a product of unknown date shot years ago in an instance where you can't prove it.0 -
We had a guy at work with a Ruger Mini-30 who had the same problem. He shot Chinese corrosive 7.62 X 39 in it, not knowing any better. Didn't get around to cleaning it for awhile, with the expected results. I believe he finally send it back to Ruger for a new barrel and internals.
Perhaps you should consider sending yours back to Kahr or just dumping it, rather then keep aggravating yourself getting all the rust out of the pits and gas system.
I had heard years ago that some European military carbine ammo was corrosive, but never figured it would be modern commercial S & B stuff. Good luck getting them to admit and make good on it.0 -
I doubt you can ever get it white patch clean, seems like the pits will always hold some corrosion or fouling. And it may not matter.
Give it some good ammo and see how it shoots. It may do about as well as it ever did and probably well enough for military weapon performance even if not quite as new. And it may well shoot better with some fouling to "condition" the roughness. A heavy cleaning may not be necessary or desirable.0 -
I keep a couple cans of military weapons solvent made for corrosive ammo around for anytime I use ammo that even "might" be corr.
The pitting is there forever, just clean it as best you can, coat with oil to inhibit the rust and keep shooting it. You can get the military solvent at gun shows.
I have 1,000rds of the older S&B .30 Carbine in the blu/grn boxes. I'll have to be careful with that stuff.0 -
S&B .30 carbine in the green (with yellow trim) boxes say 'non corrosive/non corrosive primer' in plain sight.
Look for that color combo when purchasing S&B ammo. Best, Joe0 -
You can get past the staked nut with a gas piston wrench and a small file. File the staking flat and use the wrench.
Try a patch coated with LSA oil and a smear of JB Bore Paste; go all the way several times without stopping in between the muzzle and chamber (or read the instructions on the JB). This might smooth out and remove the pits.
Cleaning the gas system will be harder 'cuz it's a smaller area, and you might not get the ends too well, but it's worth trying.
The Czech Republic has gotten quite modern over the years since they got ceded to the Commies; they even have indoor plumbing now.
S&B might even have telephone service for you to call and complain, but I doubt you will get a new gun for free.0 -
quote:Originally posted by givette
S&B .30 carbine in the green (with yellow trim) boxes say 'non corrosive/non corrosive primer' in plain sight.
Look for that color combo when purchasing S&B ammo. Best, Joe
This is modern ammunition -- NOT surplus. It is commercially packed in the light green boxes (UPC codes for retail sale), boxer primed; it is marked "non-corrosive, non-erosive."
My understanding is that Sellier & Bellot changed their packaging, but the older light green doesn't designate "surplus" -- it was ammunition made for the commercial retail market.
I won't be trusting those words, "non corrosive," anymore on any imported ammo. It is surprising a company like Sellier & Bellot is willing to compromise their good name (whether it's some extreme "sloppiness" in manufacturing, or intentional deception) and let something like this out the door. I guess they don't understand the importance of "brands" in selling product.
You'd think quality control would catch something like this -- if it was unintentional -- and they'd issue a recall. I can't believe I'm the only person who got a case of this with some corrosive primers. I've shot boxes of it before, with no problems, so the whole (two cases) were not all corrosively primed.
As for the gas block, yes, I have that out and have included it in the cleaning process. Getting the salts out isn't my biggest concern -- I know the soap and hot water will clean that away -- I was just wondering about the fine pitting and remaining oxide in the pits. I think it will still shoot OK, though when I shoot the rest of this ammo, I'll have to clean immediately treating it as corrosive.
Thanks for all the input.0 -
What's the S&B lot number? (Ink stamp inside of flap) 0 -
quote:Originally posted by givette
What's the S&B lot number? (Ink stamp inside of flap)
The two boxes I have out here (I threw away most of the ones I shot, so I'm not sure if these match the ones that have shown to be corrosive) are marked "19/ 48" and 19/ 55." (Those wouldn't be dates, would they? Was old ammo repackaged in new commercial boxes?)
If I get time (it won't be in the next two weeks), I may see what other lot numbers I have in the remainder of the two cases; then pull some of the bullets and fire the primers onto test steel to see if I can locate a specific lot number that is corrosive.0
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