9mm industry standard pressures
According to ANSI/SAAMI STD Z299.3-1984 max non military product average for all bullet weight loadings in 9mm Luger, as determined by piezoelectric transducer system, is 37,400psi with a maximum permissible individual pressure of 43,300psi.
Velocities for 115gr fmj are 1125 and 1090fps for 124gr fmj.
For some perspective, recent velocities taken from a 4 2/8 barrel were:
German Hirtenberger L7A1 124 gr....1308FPS
WW2 Canadian military 115 gr.......1250fps
Years back,a group of Luger shooters and I shot many thousands of rounds of Canadian surplus military 9mm in Lugers without any mechanical problems except that Lugers produced an occasional failure to feed jam. 124 grain loadings might have reduced this.
An older NRA loading manual gives 35,700psi as max product average pressure. I don't know where they got that from...maybe CUP testing.
Velocities for 115gr fmj are 1125 and 1090fps for 124gr fmj.
For some perspective, recent velocities taken from a 4 2/8 barrel were:
German Hirtenberger L7A1 124 gr....1308FPS
WW2 Canadian military 115 gr.......1250fps
Years back,a group of Luger shooters and I shot many thousands of rounds of Canadian surplus military 9mm in Lugers without any mechanical problems except that Lugers produced an occasional failure to feed jam. 124 grain loadings might have reduced this.
An older NRA loading manual gives 35,700psi as max product average pressure. I don't know where they got that from...maybe CUP testing.
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The surplus Austrian Hirtenberg ammo was the hotest production ammo available. It came in two flavors 100 grain soft point "police" loads, and 124 grain fmj submachine gun military loads.
I bought a bunch of the 100 grain SP's and cronoed them thru a Browning. 1400 fps on the button. Very little deviation in velocity, and extremely accurate.
I was also going to buy some of the 124 grain FMJ's, also. The only way they would sell them though is if you signed a waiver, releasing them of all liability if anything happened to the pistol or you. Screw that, for the money they were selling it for, I wasn't going to play games. Supposedly from a MP 5 the muzzle velocity was 1400 fps.0 -
Is this post in response to comments from the "common ammo" thread about 9mm luger vs. 9mm NATO pressures?
More importantly, is there a question?
Commenting on above and speaking in general, velocities from similar test barrels with similar weight bullets might be a reasonable first appoximation of peak pressures, but they're definitely not the same thing.
For example, from a given test barrel, you might get a higher peak pressure with a faster-burning powder, even though you get a greater absolute velocity with a slower-burning one. I think if you REALLY want to know what peak pressures are, you probably need to measure them directly.
Its also worth mentioning that if you're going to try to compare velocities, you really need to use the same barrel for apples-to-apples comparison. Some barrels are noticeably faster or slower than others, even at the same barrel length. For example, a polygonal rifled barrel can add more than 50 fps to a typical service handgun round as compared to a conventional spiral-cut barrel.
On the various 9mm flavors, one take home point is that even the "hot" 9mm NATO or +P rounds are only running at 10% more pressure than the "normal" rounds. In absolute terms, its not a huge difference. Further, not only do modern 9mm guns tend to be really strong (small caliber = more steel around the chamber), but ALL of the modern service type guns (Beretta, Glock, SIG, HK, Smith, Ruger, CZ, etc, etc) were designed from inception to handle unlimited 9mm NATO rounds.
So, presuming you properly maintain the gun, you should not see ANY decrement in expected service life by running 9mm NATO. Which isn't to say that the gun won't last longer if you only use low-velocity 115 grain ammo instead of higher pressure 124, just that you should still be able to get at least 20,000 rounds through your pistol even with high pressure ammo only.0 -
quote:Originally posted by rufe-snow
The surplus Austrian Hirtenberg ammo was the hotest production ammo available. It came in two flavors 100 grain soft point "police" loads, and 124 grain fmj submachine gun military loads.
I bought a bunch of the 100 grain SP's and cronoed them thru a Browning. 1400 fps on the button. Very little deviation in velocity, and extremely accurate.
I was also going to buy some of the 124 grain FMJ's, also. The only way they would sell them though is if you signed a waiver, releasing them of all liability if anything happened to the pistol or you. Screw that, for the money they were selling it for, I wasn't going to play games. Supposedly from a MP 5 the muzzle velocity was 1400 fps.
For what its worth, Corbon claims 1475 fps for its 100 grain "Power-R-ball" 9mm luger +P from a 4" test barrel, and I actually believe it.
BBTI documented 1360 fps with the Corbon 124 grain +P from an 18" MP5 barrel:
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9mmluger.html
On the vendors of your Hirtenberger, I don't know who "they" are, but I doubt any waiver like that would absolutely protect a seller from liability.
In fact, it might even implicate them. After all (putting on evil lawyer hat [}:)]), why would they ask you to sign a waiver releasing you from liability unless they had reason to believe their product was likely to injure you? If their product was so dangerous, why did they stock it?
Anyway, personally, I see very little good reason to try and push 9mm luger way beyond its design envelope.
Looking at the best +P rounds like the Corbon or Speer Gold Dot above, a 124 grain 9mm+P bullet at 1250 fps from a 5" barrel gun is not exactly a "slouch" round. That puts out the same caliber and weight bullet as a typical .357 magnum load at 85% of the momentum (power factor) and 75% of the kinetic energy. And that's from a gun that potentially holds triple the capacity in a normal-sized package.
If that's not enough firepower, I think it makes more sense to switch to a larger caliber rather than try and make a 9mm do something it was never intended to.0 -
I think the discussion was on industry standard 9mm Luger ammo and its' basis in and departure from SAAMI/ANSI specs that I believe were understated.
Original German military 9mm ammo (DWM480C) specified a TC 124Gr bullet at 1250FPS. This level of power seems to evoke horror on the part of GB readers who are happy with industry power derated ammo that wont awaken a Luger.
It is actually only 50fps slower than the +P+ Hirtenberger L7A1 124 gr ammo.
I have 12-9mms and a 16" carbine to test loads in and am pretty well satisfied shooting original spec 9mm ammo.
Not being a target shooter, I'm not interested in shooting mid-range loads.
I read of some Corbon taking a P3AT to pieces.
On their 124 grain Powerball getting 1360fps from an 18" barrel, I've gotten between 1340 and 1386 from a P2000-16" barrel with 6 gr Unique, an Ackley load. That load also gave 1160fps in a BHP.
As that falls short of the original DWM load I wouldn't consider it a maximum load.0 -
quote:Originally posted by v35
I think the discussion was on industry standard 9mm Luger ammo and its' basis in and departure from SAAMI/ANSI specs that I believe were understated.
OK. . .I must have missed that. Sounds good to me.
quote:Original German military 9mm ammo (DWM480C) specified a TC 124Gr bullet at 1250FPS. This level of power seems to evoke horror on the part of GB readers who are happy with industry power derated ammo that wont awaken a Luger.
That's interesting. I've heard for years that European 9mm luger was hotter than off-the-shelf American, but I didn't know that the 9mm luger was originally designed to yield the same performance as a modern +P load (which again, is about 75%-85% of the power of a standard .357 magnum).
Makes you wonder why the ammo has been so consistently gimped here.
Was there some popular American gun that wasn't built tough enough to handle these pressures and this was a liability thing? Was it because the gun and ammo makers didn't want to "embarrass" American auto pistols?
Is it just because weaker ammo is more suitable for inexpensive recreational shooting? Maybe 115 grain ammo at 1150 fps is like the semi-auto equivalent of "wadcutter" ammo.
quote:I read of some Corbon taking a P3AT to pieces.
Well, the .380ACP "3AT" really isn't that robust of a gun, but even if it were, hopefully you wouldn't be shooting 9mm luger through it!
I've heard of one shooter deliberately overloading his .380 cases to the point where it blew the slide off his 3AT just to see how far he could go. Apparently he got the thing WAY above normal .380 velocities close to 9mm luger power. You can get away with this with a 3AT because unlike many .380s that use a simple blowback action, it actually uses a Browning type short-recoil lockup.
I can't imagine 9mm luger +P Corbon ammo blowing up any quality conventional 9mm luger gun. Yes, its a little bit more powerful than most of the so-called +P ammo, but its not "crazy" hot.
quote:On their 124 grain Powerball getting 1360fps from an 18" barrel, I've gotten between 1340 and 1386 from a P2000-16" barrel with 6 gr Unique, an Ackley load. That load also gave 1160fps in a BHP. As that falls short of the original DWM load I wouldn't consider it a maximum load.
Well, again, its a mistake to equate absolute velocity with maximum pressures. The two are related, but not identical, and its especially not true when you introduce longer barrels into the mix. Slower burning powders can give you increased velocity without corresponding proportionate pressure increase.
In other words, just because a certain round achieves a higher velocity from a longer barrel doesn't necessarily mean its operating at a higher peak pressure.
Along these lines, a round that does relatively well from a short pistol barrel may not do so well from a longer carbine barrel and vice versa.
In general, the semi-auto pistol rounds including 9mm luger have been (unsurprisingly) optimized to work with super-fast burning powders and short barrels, so these usually top out in velocity in relatively short barrels, and won't necessarily perform as well as possible in carbines.
As another issue, as a matter of practice, I think a lot of the 9mm guns are overbuilt. The relatively small cartridge diameter means a lot of steel around the chamber.
I've heard of IPSC guys overloading 9mms by seating the bullets way out to maximize working volume, then even tamping down the powder to squeeze in more, to the point where they could achieve true .357 magnum ballistics (ie 1450 fps with 124 grain bullets) to make "major" with what amounts to an otherwise ordinary 9mm luger gun.
I don't know how safe this is (probably not very, unless you have the right setup and are VERY careful), but it shows just what "can" be done with the round.0 -
quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
Was there some popular American gun that wasn't built tough enough to handle these pressures and this was a liability thing? Was it because the gun and ammo makers didn't want to "embarrass" American auto pistols?
It wasn't so much U.S. made guns but pistols made years ago in Italy and Spain. They were made long before legal liability was such a big part of the U.S. firearms business. Firing the hot Plus P type loads in them would be a recipe for diasaster. Even the wimpy 115 gr. @ 1150 FPS would stress them.0 -
Bottom line:
Just what modern loadings, and brands do I look for for shooting my 1937 P-08 that is 'spot on' to the mid '30's 9mm rounds available back in the day?
I have a box of 'white box-U.S. made' stuff. Should I be looking for something different? I really want what the P-08 used back in the day.
Anything off the shelf available?
Thanks, Joe
EDIT
rufe-snow: Thanks for your reply, below. Best, Joe0 -
Lots of things were done in the time of war. Look at the Italian Carcano and 1893 Mausers converted to 8x57. Many of these would not be feasible in the current liability lawyer infested world. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by givette
Bottom line:
Just what modern loadings, and brands do I look for for shooting my 1937 P-08 that is 'spot on' to the mid '30's 9mm rounds available back in the day?
I have a box of 'white box-U.S. made' stuff. Should I be looking for something different? I really want what the P-08 used back in the day.
Anything off the shelf available?
Thanks, Joe
Use this Winchester, 124 grain, FMJ stuff, your Luger should function with no problems.
http://www.c*h*e*a*p*e*r*t*h*a*n*d*i*r*t.com/AMM4310-1.html0 -
The S&W model 39 was the first US auto made specifically in 9mm.
It is a lightweight having an aluminum frame. PD's picked this DA
auto up and did a lot of shooting with it.
I suspect it didn't stand up all that well.
I believe the postwar P38 with aluminum frame had structural frame issues.
The Swedish Lhati also had breakages with 9mm ammo.
1940 & 1958 US ammo listings give the sole 9mm loading as 124 gr at 1150fps.
My 1984 SAAMI manual derates the 124 grain load to 1090FPS. It may even be lower today.
For informational purposes only, a heavy 115 gr fmj Unique load gave 1318 fps from a Tokarev, 1195 from G19 , 1215 from a 3 5/8" Luger, 1275 from BHP, 1166 from Keltec P11 and 1474fps from a Keltec P2000 16" carbine. This load will be cut back .2 gr and tested more extensively.0
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