ammo commonality Pt. II.
Beantown,
For the record, I can come up with several different specs for 9mm. 115 NATO, 9mm BALL NATO 115 GR cartridge meets all STANAG 4090 requirements. I've fired 115 gr., 124 gr, 147 gr. for machine pistols only, and 145 gr. made for Swedish "K" guns. All in the military. Try to remember the 9mm Luger/Parabellum/9x19 came along in 1902 and had been tweaked by many different countries/entities before NATO came along and 'standardized' it.
Again, it used to be so cheap I thought I never see reloading it. That changed a few years ago when I started helping friends reload for it. And, picking up brass off the range because, reloaded it was finally worth something.
Here in MN .380 went to nil because of the conceal carry situation here. There was a backlash by the 'anti's' that scared everyone into thinking they were going to have a worse time getting firearms. It seemingly didn't have as much to do with Obama being elected.
As noted most of the military rounds dried up quickly. Because of one need or another. The 7.62 Russian dried up because it was bought up for training. Even though they make the most of it, they use it 100 times as fast as we do.
So, as noted, I suggest stick with the rounds that are not on the military lists. Instead, get the better rounds that aren't adopted by the militaries of the world.
Some big exceptions to this would be, the 6.5 Swede, 7mm Mauser, 7.65 Argentine, 30-06, 8mm Mauser, where there is a lot of surplus out there. It won't do any good to go with one of these though if you don't stockpile ammunition for these 'no longer frontline' rifles.
For the record, I can come up with several different specs for 9mm. 115 NATO, 9mm BALL NATO 115 GR cartridge meets all STANAG 4090 requirements. I've fired 115 gr., 124 gr, 147 gr. for machine pistols only, and 145 gr. made for Swedish "K" guns. All in the military. Try to remember the 9mm Luger/Parabellum/9x19 came along in 1902 and had been tweaked by many different countries/entities before NATO came along and 'standardized' it.
Again, it used to be so cheap I thought I never see reloading it. That changed a few years ago when I started helping friends reload for it. And, picking up brass off the range because, reloaded it was finally worth something.
Here in MN .380 went to nil because of the conceal carry situation here. There was a backlash by the 'anti's' that scared everyone into thinking they were going to have a worse time getting firearms. It seemingly didn't have as much to do with Obama being elected.
As noted most of the military rounds dried up quickly. Because of one need or another. The 7.62 Russian dried up because it was bought up for training. Even though they make the most of it, they use it 100 times as fast as we do.
So, as noted, I suggest stick with the rounds that are not on the military lists. Instead, get the better rounds that aren't adopted by the militaries of the world.
Some big exceptions to this would be, the 6.5 Swede, 7mm Mauser, 7.65 Argentine, 30-06, 8mm Mauser, where there is a lot of surplus out there. It won't do any good to go with one of these though if you don't stockpile ammunition for these 'no longer frontline' rifles.
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quote:For the record, I can come up with several different specs for 9mm
Of course. The point is just that "9mm NATO" refers to one particular spec and the term is not synonymous with "9mm luger".
quote:Here in MN .380 went to nil because of the conceal carry situation here.
.380 was in short supply in the entire country after the Obama election, not just MN.
At the shortage peak, I remember going to a gun show and watching people literally standing in line to pay $30 a box for non-premium .380 just because this was literally the only .380 available anywhere in town. I told my friend (who picked up two boxes for his Sig 232), "I'm not paying more for .380 than .357 magnum!"
The reasons are multiple: Rapid increase in popularity of concealed carry because of liberalization of State concealed carry laws; subsequent massive increase in popularity of .380s like the Kel Tec; and relatively low production of .380 by the big ammo manufacturers (who were using their machines to put out 9mm luger instead). Add that to the hoarding that took place after Obama got elected, and .380 in particular became unavailable.
On 7.62x39, obviously demand for that was high too. I heard some internet story (no idea if its true or not) that a huge shipment of Russian ammo got tied up in import and wasn't allowed into the USA for several months, further exacerbating that particular shortage.
Anyway, again, the best way to prevent getting "locked out" by ammo shortages (which would include absolute bans or de-facto bans involving increased taxes, registration, etc) is simply to keep a decent stockpile of ammo locked away for a "rainy day". Ammo doesn't take up all that much space, and it will last decades if kept cool and dry.
Some people recommend having (at all times) at least 1000 rounds in good ammo for every caliber you have a gun for. I'd say that depends on what the caliber is, and what you intend to do with it.
For example, 1000 rounds of .22LR (which, not incidentally was also impossible to find locally on the shelvesduring the Obama panic), isn't really very much at all, since that ammo goes quickly for plinking and target shooting.
On the other hand 1000 rounds of .44 magnum should be enough to last any casual shooter for years, and you can probably reasonably get away with a lot less.0 -
Again, 9mm "NATO" is not just one spec. As I pointed out I used 115, 124, 147 and 145 gr. bullets that were ALL NATO spec. So yes there is differences, and no, not all NATO spec is hotter. Some of it is so hot you don't ever want to run it through your handgun.
And the shortage I'm talking about with the .380 started in '07. I bought my daughter one for CC and then couldn't buy ammo for it. No problem, I reload for it.
I do agree with you on stockpiling. And how much to keep what of. You're right in that 1000 rds. of .22 LR isn't a whole lot. Keeping 4-5 bricks of it doesn't take up much space. By the same token, what ever animal you want as your "go-to" rifle needs to be stocked a lot better than 1000 rds. In the live fire training we did, I went through almost twice that in any single day. I would have at least twice that amount (2000) for the rifle of choice as the go to. You won't be assaulting objectives over and over again probably like I did in training. So, no doubt it should last longer. But if SHTF, one siege and you'll use up a lot of it.
The other thing one needs to think about is not just stocking up on ammo, but what are your tactics going to be? Will you hunt? Could you still grow food where you are at? Are you in a place that may need defending more than other places?
Edit:
quote:Originally posted by TRAP55
quote:The 7.62 Russian dried up because it was bought up for training. Even though they make the most of it, they use it 100 times as fast as we do.
sandwarrior, combloc milsurp prices went up because the UN, using our tax dollars, were out bidding places like Century, Ammo man, etc. It was loaded onto ships and dumped in the Atlantic.
Sadly, I can believe that was also going on.
This is also why EVERYONE needs to pull their heads out of the sand and quit voting for Republicans/Democrats just because.... IMO, some of the worst gun legislation was passed during the Clinton years...with Republicans backing it! And some of the worst 'non-legislative' gun rules were put into, or attempted to put into, effect during the Bush years.
Is saying I don't trust Washington at all going to get this thread moved to the political forum?....0 -
quote:The 7.62 Russian dried up because it was bought up for training. Even though they make the most of it, they use it 100 times as fast as we do.
sandwarrior, combloc milsurp prices went up because the UN, using our tax dollars, were out bidding places like Century, Ammo man, etc. It was loaded onto ships and dumped in the Atlantic.
V35, I got my info from an inside source long before it was general knowledge. Google it, you'll find lots of complaints from ammo vendors. I do think the plan has stopped, or at least slowed down. The anti gun groups were ecstatic when it was implemented.
They interfered with Century importing two containers of spare SVT-40 parts at that time, that's what got me interested in what happened. I think it was Canadian Marstar, that side stepped them, and rescued some, if not most of it.
The Hildebeast and Obama have been working for more of the same too.[:(!]0 -
Is this true?
Where can I read about it?
Rather than being dumped, might it or some of it be stockpiled by our Govt.
I've witnessed secret stockpiling by the US during my time in the service. Captured arms and ammunition were stockpiled in a warehouse for issue to friendly insurgents.
The weaponry wouldn't carry the USA trademark and tie US support to a conflict.
Stockpiling too odd an ammo would leave a signature in a SHTF scenario.
The Glock blade firing pin indent is a regretable one.
It's interesting that when the price of ammo became "right" it became available again.0 -
quote:Originally posted by TRAP55
quote:The 7.62 Russian dried up because it was bought up for training. Even though they make the most of it, they use it 100 times as fast as we do.
sandwarrior, combloc milsurp prices went up because the UN, using our tax dollars, were out bidding places like Century, Ammo man, etc. It was loaded onto ships and dumped in the Atlantic.
I'm no fan of either the UN or the current administration, but bluntly, this smells like typical internet/black helicopter BS to me. Without good evidence to the contrary, I don't buy a word of it.
Another rumor I heard is that a huge shipment of Russian steel case ammo was tied up in customs inspection for months by the Obama administration, adding to shortage of supply. Again, I don't know if this is true or not, but at least to me this one seems a little more plausible.
The Obama administration most definitely DID order the US military to stop collecting and selling spent cases for reloading, but that got reversed relatively quickly when domestic US law enforcement complained about how this would skyrocket ammo costs and bust all their training budgets.
Responding to Sandwarrior above, your point about multiple types of STANAG compatible ammo is good. My point still remains: Not every type of 9mm luger meets the STANAG specs (eg: any hollowpoint ammo would not) and so 9mm luger still isn't synonymous with 9mm NATO.
Again, this is a relatively minor semantics point; in practice just about every 9mm gun in current manufacture is rated for unlimited 9mm+P or NATO pressure ammo, and so in practice just about any gun will be safe with any 9mm ammo. (One notable exception is the Kel-Tec PF9, which IIRC the manufacturer advises against using +P 9mm ammo).
On the .380 shortage, my experience has been that availability was occasionally spotty even before Obama, though at least where I am, you could usually find some on a shelf somewhere. But then again, in my town there are at least 6 or 7 places where one can buy ammo.
Still, even during the peak of the Obama ammo panic, with none on the shelves locally, you could always still buy PLENTY of .380 ammo on the auction site here. . .assuming you were willing to pay $32-35 a box for it!
EDIT:
quote:Stockpiling too odd an ammo would leave a signature in a SHTF scenario.
I don't follow this. Let's say you keep three cases of .376 Steyr- ammo in your basement for your super-dooper Steyr-Cooper Scout rifle waiting for the apocalypse. Who is going to know or care?
If you're saying that if you happen tohave an unusual caliber weapon, then it might be more easy to connect particular spent shells to your particular gun, then I agree with you. Is that what your worried about in your SHTF scenario?
quote:
The Glock blade firing pin indent is a regretable one.
Well, again, every gun is going to leave a potentially connectable mark on a case it fires. If you leave a case behind (anywhere, anytime) you should assume it could potentially be matched with the gun that fired it. . .not necessarily, but the possibility is definitely there.
The fact is, that there are fifty-gazillion Glocks out there, and **just** having a glock-profile indentation on a case wouldn't necessarily tie the gun to YOUR Glock. If you're worried about some eagle-eye picking up a spent case, looking at it, and saying "this came from a Glock", then get a non-Glock. Or buy an aftermarket firing pin. Or alter the geometry on the firing pin you have already, etc.
quote:It's interesting that when the price of ammo became "right" it became available again.
Cart pulling donkey.
When ammo was scarce, prices went up, as a normal function of supply and demand.
Then when the hoarding stopped and ammo availability increased to normal levels, prices returned to normal levels.
I was following ammo prices closely (ie checking multiple vendors every single week), and that's what I saw. Specifically: ammo prices ramping up the month after Obama got elected, continuing to go up, then eventually levelling off, and dropping down.0 -
quote:I'm no fan of either the UN or the current administration, but bluntly, this smells like typical internet/black helicopter BS to me. Without good evidence to the contrary, I don't buy a word of it.
No one asked you to take my word for it.
You have a computer? Google it!
You have a phone? Call Century and ask them!0
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