Trap55's rifle...anyone find anything?
I saw the post and started doing some research. I couldn't find anything in unusual Mauser's except the German 'Fliers rifle' sure looked a lot like a Mondragon. This looks very different.
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=533142
It would be interesting to see how it worked then maybe get some idea of who built it based on that, eh?
Added: I just got thinking about it and the word 'fusil' is not Mexican/Spanish rather French. It could have been built by the French? Does anyone know if the SIG manufacturer of Mondragons was in a French/German/Italian Canton? Maybe this rifle could have been built in Belgium (FN) where they speak French?
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=533142
It would be interesting to see how it worked then maybe get some idea of who built it based on that, eh?
Added: I just got thinking about it and the word 'fusil' is not Mexican/Spanish rather French. It could have been built by the French? Does anyone know if the SIG manufacturer of Mondragons was in a French/German/Italian Canton? Maybe this rifle could have been built in Belgium (FN) where they speak French?
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Never seen one like that.. However, in the early sixties, I purchased 3 Mexican rifles from Golden State Arms, in Pasadena, Calif.. One was the regular Mondragon that reached full production and issue.. I was told by the store that the other 2 were experimental/trial models from Mondrago's design efforts..( not one of a kind prototypes )..
They both had the applied shield that is shown on Dave's photos- On the stock's right side, near the take-down junction.. Both had a box magazine, and neither had the side load feature.. Both had the Mauser style front-end/hand-guard/bbl bands/ bayonet lug.. I remember that a standard mauser bayonet fit both.. Probably a model 95 Mauser.. I know I didn't need any special bayonet..
One was a straight-pull ala Swiss K models- including the red bakelite handle.. The rear of the receiver had the same design as Dave's example.. It was 7x57..
The other was a bolt-action ala Mauser 71.. Split receiver bridge.. 7x57 also..
Whether or not that was good info given to me, I can't say for sure.. Made sense at the time, when the 3 were side by side.. I was just a kid, and didn't keep them that long, or research them.. Never did see any others like them over the years.. They were top quality, and I can't imagine them being built in Mexico.. I don't recall the markings..
The 2 odd ones were in excellent condition, obviously never seen service.. Handling marks, and a little rust here and there from un-attended storage..
sandwarrior.. Fusil is rifle in both Spanish and French..[8D]
Rufe- He may have sold them to me[8D] It was less than an hour away, and my dad would drive me there at least once a month.. I wasn't old enough to have a drivers license.. No way an employee could even make a dent in the strange stuff they offered.. If you visited, you know what I mean!!.. Every trip I would even dumpster-dive for the throw-aways.. Old slings, Terni and M-S clips.. Holsters.. Wooden ammo boxes.. Stocks.. Old bayonets with missing handles and scabbards....0 -
quote:Originally posted by Hangfire
Never seen one like that.. However, in the early sixties, I purchased 3 Mexican rifles from Golden State Arms, in Pasadena, Calif.. One was the regular Mondragon that reached full production and issue.. I was told by the store that the other 2 were experimental/trial models from Mondrago's design efforts..( not one of a kind prototypes )..
They both had the applied shield that is shown on Dave's photos- On the stock's right side, near the take-down junction.. Both had a box magazine, and neither had the side load feature.. Both had the Mauser style front-end/hand-guard/bbl bands/ bayonet lug.. I remember that a standard mauser bayonet fit both.. Probably a model 95 Mauser.. I know I didn't need any special bayonet..
One was a straight-pull ala Swiss K models- including the red bakelite handle.. The rear of the receiver had the same design as Dave's example.. It was 7x57..
The other was a bolt-action ala Mauser 71.. Split receiver bridge.. 7x57 also..
Whether or not that was good info given to me, I can't say for sure.. Made sense at the time, when the 3 were side by side.. I was just a kid, and didn't keep them that long, or research them.. Never did see any others like them over the years.. They were top quality, and I can't imagine them being built in Mexico.. I don't recall the markings..
The 2 odd ones were in excellent condition, obviously never seen service.. Handling marks, and a little rust here and there from un-attended storage..
sandwarrior.. Fusil is rifle in both Spanish and French..[8D]
Surprising you were able to buy them off of Golden State during that time frame. They had a employee that worked their by the name of Jack Harker. He was into odd ball military stuff and managed to scarf up most of those kind of guns that went through Golden State. From the various ones I saw years later, he got payed in guns rather then cash.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Hangfire
Rufe- He may have sold them to me[8D] It was less than an hour away, and my dad would drive me there at least once a month.. I wasn't old enough to have a drivers license.. No way an employee could even make a dent in the strange stuff they offered.. If you visited, you know what I mean!!.. Every trip I would even dumpster-dive for the throw-aways.. Old slings, Terni and M-S clips.. Holsters.. Wooden ammo boxes.. Stocks.. Old bayonets with missing handles and scabbards....
I moved to cali in the mid 60's just prior to Golden State Arms going belly up. I had managed getting their once of twice before that happened. To bad, it was like a fantasyland to a gun collector, as I remembered it.
Harker was a pretty strange bird. He give most of the Golden State guns to a local guy to sell for him during the mid 70's time frame. From what I saw of it, it would probably be worth in the 100's of thousands of dollars, to collectors nowadays.0 -
Hangfire,
Thanks for the heads up on the spelling[B)][B)]....[8D] I would keep googling modern websites looking for this thing and I kept coming up with rifle, not fusil. That's when it dawned on me that it may be French or a French speaking nation that built it. I just now found a Spanish/English speaking site that calls it 'fusil'
As far as quality goes, I know so many people who have the mentality that if it's made in Mexico...it oughta stay in Mexico. I will say for you Mauser GNUTS, like me, you'll know that 1920's -1950's Mauser rifle's are some of the best out there. I advise you to get one if you can while they are still affordable.
One thing about Mexican labor is they have a very good sense of craftsmanship for what they know. Stick them in something they don't know and you'll not see good results, i.e. high tech car parts. The reason they did so well in the early part of the last century with firearms was they were tied pretty close with Germany. And there was that definite trend toward betterment in the manufacturing industries with Germany. I should say industries that required hand and mind skills not just hand skills. A lot depends on how much education they can get as to how well they can do for themselves. At the time these weapons/rifles were conceived {added: 1892-1911, his abdication} Porofiro Diaz was big into sending 'young, up and coming officers, and defense types to Europe for education. Combine that with the sense the factory worker has of getting each one as perfect as he can. That went both ways for Germany as they now had a tie to the western world other than immigrants in the USA, whose mindset was they escaped the feudal system. And, weren't always willing to 'fall back into the fold' when the Fatherland called. Germany had ties like that actually, to all of South/Central America.
Suffice it to say, the arms built in Mexico are very high quality arms. I know that surprises some, but I'd snap one up every time I had the chance.0 -
quote:Originally posted by sandwarrior
Hangfire,
Thanks for the heads up on the spelling[B)][B)]....[8D] I would keep googling modern websites looking for this thing and I kept coming up with rifle, not fusil. That's when it dawned on me that it may be French or a French speaking nation that built it. I just now found a Spanish/English speaking site that calls it 'fusil'
As far as quality goes, I know so many people who have the mentality that if it's made in Mexico...it oughta stay in Mexico. I will say for you Mauser GNUTS, like me, you'll know that 1920's -1950's Mauser rifle's are some of the best out there. I advise you to get one if you can while they are still affordable.
One thing about Mexican labor is they have a very good sense of craftsmanship for what they know. Stick them in something they don't know and you'll not see good results, i.e. high tech car parts. The reason they did so well in the early part of the last century with firearms was they were tied pretty close with Germany. And there was that definite trend toward betterment in the manufacturing industries with Germany. I should say industries that required hand and mind skills not just hand skills. A lot depends on how much education they can get as to how well they can do for themselves. At the time these weapons/rifles were conceived {added: 1892-1911, his abdication} Porofiro Diaz was big into sending 'young, up and coming officers, and defense types to Europe for education. Combine that with the sense the factory worker has of getting each one as perfect as he can. That went both ways for Germany as they now had a tie to the western world other than immigrants in the USA, whose mindset was they escaped the feudal system. And, weren't always willing to 'fall back into the fold' when the Fatherland called. Germany had ties like that actually, to all of South/Central America.
Suffice it to say, the arms built in Mexico are very high quality arms. I know that surprises some, but I'd snap one up every time I had the chance.
sandwarrior.. I agree on the quality of Mexican firearms.. Their finished product is excellent.. .. I just doubted their manufacturing capabilities, at that time, could/would produce R&D samples with that fit and finish..0 -
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Harker was a pretty strange bird. He give most of the Golden State guns to a local guy to sell for him during the mid 70's time frame. From what I saw of it, it would probably be worth in the 100's of thousands of dollars, to collectors nowadays.
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That's what I did.. For a punk-ass kid, I had the most interesting table at our local, monthly, club meetings.. I'd also set-up a cool table at the annual Disneyland gun show.. For those that don't know, Disneyland ran a show that equaled those held at Sahara, Las Vegas, or Reno.. I thank my Dad since he wasn't a gun person ( at that time ), but enjoyed sharing time with me..0 -
Could this rifle be Italian? Could FNA be the same FNA Brecia (i.e., Fabrica National de Armas, Brescia) which also made Carcano rifle? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Hardrada55
Could this rifle be Italian? Could FNA be the same FNA Brecia (i.e., Fabrica National de Armas, Brescia) which also made Carcano rifle?
The receiver and the butt stock are marked FNA also Mexico 1918. The initials are the same but I believe that the rifle was a very limited production prototype or experimental made in the Mexican National Armory in 1918.0 -
quote:you'll know that 1920's -1950's Mauser rifle's are some of the best out there. I advise you to get one if you can while they are still affordable.
Hush dammit! You'll drive the prices up![:D]
While on my quest to find out whatdahell that thing is, I clicked on a guns.ru link. I've spent the last 4 days cleaning the malware and virus's out of my PC![:(!] Too bad, it used to be a good reference site for oddball stuff like that.
The search continues, if you find something, please give me a heads up?0 -
Posted on Mexico Armado forum. I got a reference that this rifle is to be found in the book, NRA Book of Small Arms, Volume 2 Rifles, page 272, authored by Walter H.B. Smith. This book attributes the design of the rifle in question to one Rafael Mandona. Anyone have this book? 0
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