You make the choice - 7mm WSM or 280 AI - CONT.
Member Camelot43 asked this in another topic:
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=532906
Usually we have many more opinions than space so the option is to use another topic to continue the same or similar question. Work load prevents me from getting to some of these topics in a timely manner and I had to lock the original so here's your chance to take a whack at this for a second go'round.
Questions:
What will this build be used for? (this is the big one...)
Do you prefer a long or short action? Does it matter?
Are you open to other suggestions?
In the general scheme of things, any 7mm will perform handily as a hunting cartridge. Even the venerable and often overlooked 7x57 Mauser is a superb cartridge and can even be pushed into target service when needed. We even used the 7mm BR in pistols for deer hunting when it first came into the the market. But, if you only want to consider the WSM or the AI then the decision boils down to actions.
The AI can be used in any standard long bolt action. Feeding will need to be adjusted by the gunsmith. This will include the rails, follower and feed ramp. Remember that a slightly longer barrel is advantageous as opposed to a stubby one for these cartridges. Forget about the gun writers and their petulant aversion to 26" barrel lengths. You can make a shorter barrel work but the cartridges will shine given some more barrel length.
Nosler makes .280 AI brass ready-to-load but the price may cause heart failure. Fifty pieces will last a lifetime of hunting and casual practice. The other alternative is fireforming which adds to the overall cost but allows for some practice while working up loads.
WSM/RSAUM cartridges require some expertise when the fitting and feeding is done. It's not difficult at all but your gunsmith needs some experience. It's easier to start with an action which is made to be used with the WSM/RSAUM cartridges from the start. Performance is exceptional as indicated by the number of shooters using these cartridges in 1,000 yard competitions.
You might consider the original .284 Winchester. Once overlooked for so long, this brass was only used to make 6.5x284 for competition but now it's made it back into the spotlight as a stand-alone match/hunting cartridge. The .284 Win. can yield '06 performance in a short action for hunting and hold it's head high in a long action for long range target shooting loaded with the new generation 162/180 grain Match bullets.
Remember that there is nothing wrong with any of the other 7mm cartridges either. Make a list and create a pro/con type of comparison spread sheet for easier analysis.
Best.
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=532906
Usually we have many more opinions than space so the option is to use another topic to continue the same or similar question. Work load prevents me from getting to some of these topics in a timely manner and I had to lock the original so here's your chance to take a whack at this for a second go'round.
Questions:
What will this build be used for? (this is the big one...)
Do you prefer a long or short action? Does it matter?
Are you open to other suggestions?
In the general scheme of things, any 7mm will perform handily as a hunting cartridge. Even the venerable and often overlooked 7x57 Mauser is a superb cartridge and can even be pushed into target service when needed. We even used the 7mm BR in pistols for deer hunting when it first came into the the market. But, if you only want to consider the WSM or the AI then the decision boils down to actions.
The AI can be used in any standard long bolt action. Feeding will need to be adjusted by the gunsmith. This will include the rails, follower and feed ramp. Remember that a slightly longer barrel is advantageous as opposed to a stubby one for these cartridges. Forget about the gun writers and their petulant aversion to 26" barrel lengths. You can make a shorter barrel work but the cartridges will shine given some more barrel length.
Nosler makes .280 AI brass ready-to-load but the price may cause heart failure. Fifty pieces will last a lifetime of hunting and casual practice. The other alternative is fireforming which adds to the overall cost but allows for some practice while working up loads.
WSM/RSAUM cartridges require some expertise when the fitting and feeding is done. It's not difficult at all but your gunsmith needs some experience. It's easier to start with an action which is made to be used with the WSM/RSAUM cartridges from the start. Performance is exceptional as indicated by the number of shooters using these cartridges in 1,000 yard competitions.
You might consider the original .284 Winchester. Once overlooked for so long, this brass was only used to make 6.5x284 for competition but now it's made it back into the spotlight as a stand-alone match/hunting cartridge. The .284 Win. can yield '06 performance in a short action for hunting and hold it's head high in a long action for long range target shooting loaded with the new generation 162/180 grain Match bullets.
Remember that there is nothing wrong with any of the other 7mm cartridges either. Make a list and create a pro/con type of comparison spread sheet for easier analysis.
Best.
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. . . thanks for the good information and suggestions. 0 -
Either way, in order to get the advantage of the long VLD bullets, you are going to need the long action?...is this correct?
If this correct, I vote for the 7mm Rem Mag. Long standing performer, an with a good reputation. Yes, the short magnums have efficiency, but since you will need the long action anyway, put the capacity behind it, and get more.
Best0 -
tsr1965,
Since his initial post, we haven't heard a peep out of Camelot43 so any information he should have imparted is left to our imaginations or desire to discuss.
I don't get the impression that he's interested in long range target shooting. Rather, my guess is that he wants to concentrate on hunting and his choice is one or the other of the two 7mm cartridges. But to cover your question:
I'm running several 7mm chambers right now and all of them are in short actions but from detachable magazines with the spacer removed. This allows me to seat the 180 gr. VLD bullets to 2.95" while still functioning through the action and for ejection. My case capacity with the bullet seated is 71.2 gr. of water.
The 7mm Rem. Mag. I'm running for tests is in a long action and has the 180 gr. VLD bullets seated to 3.340" but yields 71.8 gr. of water. Under these circumstances, there is very little discernible difference.
The 7mm WSM is actually another wildcat version made by necking down either .270 or .300 WSM cases. This provides a slightly longer neck and little bit of relief for the throat area. Competition barrel life with any of the 7mm WSMs or the Rem. Mag. is fairly restrictive, about 500 - 700 shots.
The recoil is substantial without a brake so I'm reducing the bullet weight to the 162 gr. Hornady AMAX. This will help some but I may need to add some weight to the rifles also. I'm still under according to the rules so I have the room to add.
The .284 Win. is probably the better choice as far as I'm concerned from two standpoints. Recoil is reduced and the competition barrel life is extended.
For hunting though, either of his choices will be excellent. Once he develops a load for either one, the amount of shooting will be insignificant so barrel life won't be a problem, at least for a few years.
Best.0 -
Of all the 7mm the 7mm-08 is my favorite accurate and powerful enough for anything I hunt 0 -
It's a shame he isn't going to be back probably...or want it to be about long range. He oughta just go with the .280 Rem and call it a day. Nothing too difficult for him there.
I was going to comment on this regarding my recent experiences shooting at one mile. I know, I know, self promotion is the downfall of us all...[8D][}:)][8D]
Anyhow, the point to that being is I found that WITH equal cases, the 6.5 won the short race. Not sure at one mile. Wind skills were kind of a matter of luck at one mile. At 1k, the 6.5mm was clearly dominant. Wind skills for both of us had to come into play. However when stepped up to the bigger case giving equal velocity, the 7mm was clearly dominant. Wind included. I say this as the last time I shot @ 1k I knew I had hardly any windage calls to make if it wasn't blowing hard. Wind is going to matter, but less I think than if you're shooting the {edit:} lighter heavier and more} ballistically efficient bullet.
If you were to compare a slightly bigger or smaller case in 7mm's I think that is what you would find. A little slower means a little more elevation and a little more precise on the wind call.
Edit:
The 7mm WSM-6.5 Creedmoor is a comparison, not a head to head like we did out in Nevada.0 -
I apologize I posted and left town - bad form...
So to answer questions: Looking to build a dream rifle for a family member who competes only on a personal level not in competitions and to be used for potential long range hunting shots (if need be) out in the open, often nasty & windy lands of Idaho.
Have not settled on the action but can see advantages of the short action.
24" - 26" barrel
Handloads
It will be used as both a target and hunting rifle. He suggested the 280 AI but after running every ballistic calculator imaginable I found the 7mm WSM to have an advantage over the 280 AI in every category according to the paper.
I do have a gunsmith ready to go when I am for the build.
Thank you for all of your replies! I especially appreciate every reply with an explaination.
So if you were going to build a dream rifle knowing it will be used as an all around target & hunting dream custom rifle what would you build for long range windy lands for whitetails, Elk & bear? open to other ideas on calibers and actions but this is a starting point.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Camelot43
I apologize I posted and left town - bad form...
So to answer questions: Looking to build a dream rifle for a family member who competes only on a personal level not in competitions and to be used for potential long range hunting shots (if need be) out in the open, often nasty & windy lands of Idaho.
Have not settled on the action but can see advantages of the short action.
24" - 26" barrel
Handloads
It will be used as both a target and hunting rifle. He suggested the 280 AI but after running every ballistic calculator imaginable I found the 7mm WSM to have an advantage over the 280 AI in every category according to the paper.
I do have a gunsmith ready to go when I am for the build.
Thank you for all of your replies! I especially appreciate every reply with an explaination.
So if you were going to build a dream rifle knowing it will be used as an all around target & hunting dream custom rifle what would you build for long range windy lands for whitetails, Elk & bear? open to other ideas on calibers and actions but this is a starting point.
I am glad to see you are back and our assumption that you weren't interested were wrong.
What I was trying to explain, while tripping over my typing fingers and not getting which was/was not straight....
Anyhow, what I meant to say was in equal (roughly) sized cases the 6.5 Creedmoor (w/123 Lap.) beat the 7mm-08 @ 1k. According to many calculators, the 7mm wins at one mile. According to the known (drop checked), ballistics I have for the 7mm-08 using 168 Berger, 168 JLK's (which I scored two hits with @ one mile) and the 180 Bergers, to obtain velocities.
So, when compared using a larger 7mm case to obtain better velocities, the 7mm not only gains ground but will surpass the 6.5 in a .308 sized case. Which brings us to the barrel race. Who wants to burn one out the fastest, but still be accurate for the next big match. the 6.5 can go up in case size too, but due to it's smaller diameter, will burn barrels faster in an 'overbore' situation.
The trick then is to find which 7mm is big enough, and loaded just hot enough to beat the 6.5 without burning down the house (barrel) in short order. A number of wildcats have been proposed. My favorite idea is using 6.5x55 brass, blown out to .461" and move forward to 33 deg., yet still maintain interference at the neck/shoulder to create a tight headspace. This round for capacity will be nearly the equal of the .280 Rem.
There is also the idea of loading moderately (which I have been doing) in the 7 WSM. That gets your velocities up to a good level, but it also leaves you not wearing your barrel out because you'd be loading to the highest accuracy node your barrel could take. The only drawback is using 15-18 gr. more powder per load. And of course, because of that, stiffened recoil or blast pressure if one uses a brake.
So, my bottom line is for 1k, go with a .308 size 6.5mm. If you want to get there with less drop and less wind, then see what the local shops have for heavier bullets in standard weight yet..0 -
Camelot---Everything mentioned before will give you stuff to think about, BUT, if "DREAM RIFLE" is a serious part of the query. Let me just add to your list of considerations. In my 50 plus years of fiddleing with this stuf, let me add. Without a doubt, the most accurate Bbl., that I have used, was a carbon fiber barrel, with a Shillen insert, made, and installed by Christensen arms. I have used lots of Douglas, PacNor, etc., with great results. But, I had Christensen Arms build a 300 RUM for me on a 700 BDL action, with a 26" carbon Bbl. After 20 rounds of break-in, and sight in, with max handloads, and 165 gr.Accubonds this gun, (with me behind it), shot three, 3 shot groups, under 0.300". The best, I have ever shot with any gun, before or since. Obviously, this was bagged from a bench, and 100 yds. The last shot, put a CA Bighorn on my wall, from the John day River canyon in Oregon. And NO, I don't own any shares, in their co. Pick your caliber, and action, but check them out!!! Hawkshaw 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Camelot43
I apologize I posted and left town - bad form...
So to answer questions: Looking to build a dream rifle for a family member who competes only on a personal level not in competitions and to be used for potential long range hunting shots (if need be) out in the open, often nasty & windy lands of Idaho.
Have not settled on the action but can see advantages of the short action.
24" - 26" barrel
Handloads
It will be used as both a target and hunting rifle. He suggested the 280 AI but after running every ballistic calculator imaginable I found the 7mm WSM to have an advantage over the 280 AI in every category according to the paper.I do have a gunsmith ready to go when I am for the build.
Thank you for all of your replies! I especially appreciate every reply with an explaination.
So if you were going to build a dream rifle knowing it will be used as an all around target & hunting dream custom rifle what would you build for long range windy lands for whitetails, Elk & bear? open to other ideas on calibers and actions but this is a starting point.
Camelot, please don't be sucked into the "faster is always better" argument. For long range shooting, whether you need to hold 22 minutes of elevation or 24 minutes of elevation doesn't really matter; the trick is to have a consistently accurate rifle and know the trajectory.
I'll probably catch some flack over this statement, but 7mm Rem Mag's just don't show up in the winners hands very often. There are better long range cartridges from an accuracy standpoint.
Build the rifle for accuracy; accuracy trumps energy for long range hunting.0 -
Camelot43,
quote:...please don't be sucked into the "faster is always better" argument. MG1890
While this seems to have merit on the surface and be so logical, it fails when you read the quote below with the application of hunting at longer ranges in windy conditions. Then yes, faster is definitely better especially when coupled with extreme accuracy at those longer ranges.
quote:...an all around target & hunting dream custom rifle what would you build for long range windy lands... Camelot43
You see, you don't have to sacrifice one for the other so long as you chose the right gunsmith and the best components for the build and the cartridge. Case and point, the 6.5 RSAUM or 6.5 WSM. Given the case capacities and the best bullet selection, you can use powders which are mild in order to increase barrel life to 3,000 - 3,500 yet achieve top end velocities which gets the bullet to the target or animal faster, reducing the potential for a miss or wounded animal. This has been proven in both the hunting and competition fields for the last several years. We have groups shot on steel at 1,200 yards measuring less than 5 inches. I'll find the picture and post it later. This is with a rifle designed for hunting not benchrest.
To expand on your rifle, I can suggest the Defiance Deviant with a built in recoil lug and 20 MOA rail.
http://defiancemachine.com/
Then get a Manners Elite Hunter stock but be sure to pillar and epoxy bed as a standard for best performance. These are the newest carbon fiber stocks with great rigidity combined with light weight. Either the EH-1 or EH-2:
http://mannersstocks.com/hunting/
Your choice of barrels can be limited to the best in the industry currently, Bartlein and there is no argument here. You can look at Krieger, Rock Creek, Brux, etc. but the Bartleins are consistently the best choice.
The newest line of Timney triggers should provide good service although Jewell is hands down the best except for the potential of dust and dirt where you hunt. There are lots of others but these two are the top choices.
Glass should be the best you can possibly afford especially since you're discussing longer ranges. There is no substitute for great glass when it comes to having a lot of air between you and the animal you're hunting. Don't be surprised at prices in the $1,000.00 range as being the proper selection.
Enjoy the process!
Best.0
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