Savage 10 scope mounting question
Hi all, have a question regarding mounting optics to my new toy and need opinions from anyone with experience. Have a 10 FCP HS Precision 308 arriving tomorrow. I have a Millett 10x50 fixed mil-dot in Warne Permanent Tactical high rings and purchased the Warne Piccatinney +20 MOA one piece mount. Question is, with around 160 click range on "1/4 per @ 100 meters, can I get down to a zero at 100 meters? I intended this gun to be my intermediate range (out to around 500 meters or so)gun, but it also will be used frequently at shorter ranges. I wanted the +20 MOA mount to give me more dot count for drop as opposed to clicks made on the scope for drop, but I wonder if I have made it so the scope won't de-elevate enough to shoot to the bullseye at 100 meters? I am not at all worried if I only have a half dozen or so clicks down left at 100 zero, so what think all of you? Should I have enough room to do what I want from 100 through 500?
EDIT#1: Thanks Todd and Tim; sage advice from both of you. I should have put in my original post that I want to retain the ability to go as far out as is practicable with a 168 to 175 projectile and still work without clicks as much as possible. The advice to sight @ 100 to the top mildot bears investigation! I work at a 300 meter range...think this would have occured to me! I can get to a 600 and a 1000 but that would be pot shots with the aforementioned 10 (as noted); still like the ability to take that pot shot should it be neccesitated.
The 10X is an attempt to make a good field of view scope with reasonable magnification for tight work to 300 and at least motivating harrasing fire beyond. It's also a little bit of an homage to a marine corp 10x rig...they do good work with their stuff, and I would like to take a whack at it using the same basic principles (granted, with my mentioned deviaitons from norm!) and my poor mans approach to it. I may have a shot at a Schmidt Bender from a friend on the real cheap, so that would be fun if it comes to be!
Tim: the adjustments are marked "1/4 per click, not miliradians. They have a version that has "1/8 per and 1 / 10 mil as well; thought I was ordering the 1 /10 but saw on the order form later I did not. Another good point with 1/4 is that not only is 10x pretty meagher beyond about 300, but the "1/4 get pretty coarse out there, so I would have to get a 300 yard Zero that was dead nuts on or a little "fudging" would be required out there. Long and short, I agree this will likely not be a huge threat beyond 300, but I will do 90 % of my shooting at that (my workplace) range so some ability beyond would be gravy.
I think I am now married to the idea of trying the +20 to see if it works (and might shim and bed if if it is a bit short) as I ordered it and have it in hand already. If I can make the +20 work well, it will stay put; if not, the long range gun will be a Savage round back anyway so a +0 would be purchased and the +20 put away for when I can afford the $3000 in optics (yes, will go big variable on that...maybe Zeiss) ...that will be a while since I just got this and that shoul blow my budget for this year (at least) on new guns!
Thanks again for the great advice...will employ and report!
EDIT#2: Got the Savage the day befor yesterday and have not answered back because I have busy lapping and alingning (pretty minimal, but still wanted to do it) and then using a worn bore brush wrapped with a good tight patch to run USP bore paste up and down the barrel alternating with CLP and Butchs to float the trash out. I will still use around 25 rounds to do the "clean/shoot" thing with but I prefer to "polish" the barrel mechanically with USP as a fine abrasive/polishing compound first; normally do about 200 breech to bore passes this way all told, and it has worked for me. At any rate, this one is already shining like a mirror!
The elevation zero using the +20 MOA turned out to leave me a good 30 clicks after the bore sight @ 75 yards so needing to go for a higher dot zero at 100 will not be required. Having said that, I plan to use the method suggested to see if at the extreme range of my scope (thinking 600 will be the absolute max with any probability of hits on a human silhouette with my 10x mil dot-bar reticle)I can get away with no clicks and use the lockable turrets in hopes of holding a real constant zero. In my experience, outside the very best optics I see (range boss the 300 where I work, see S%B, Nightforce, the new Vortexs, which I think are nice for the $, U.S Optics and Zeiss and recently a 72mm Hensoldt)nothing seems to hold zero perfectly and adjustments are a hit and miss thing; the more you spend, the better all of that seems to be, unsurprsingly. This is another reason that, until I can afford the Nightforce or Schmidt and Bender, the Millett I am making due with will be adjusted less frequently and since its a fixed 10X, the lower level glass won't be as much of a detriment as it would in a zoom scope...we'll see. After bore sighting I did a visual 30 click "box test" and it seemed to be pretty darn close to right on;already a surprise.
Anyway, did'nt want you two to think I had lost interest or did not value your opinions...I certainly do! I most certainly WILL empoy Todd's theory here as soon as a 300 yard session and break in are complete. Thanks again guys, Best,
Bill D.
EDIT#1: Thanks Todd and Tim; sage advice from both of you. I should have put in my original post that I want to retain the ability to go as far out as is practicable with a 168 to 175 projectile and still work without clicks as much as possible. The advice to sight @ 100 to the top mildot bears investigation! I work at a 300 meter range...think this would have occured to me! I can get to a 600 and a 1000 but that would be pot shots with the aforementioned 10 (as noted); still like the ability to take that pot shot should it be neccesitated.
The 10X is an attempt to make a good field of view scope with reasonable magnification for tight work to 300 and at least motivating harrasing fire beyond. It's also a little bit of an homage to a marine corp 10x rig...they do good work with their stuff, and I would like to take a whack at it using the same basic principles (granted, with my mentioned deviaitons from norm!) and my poor mans approach to it. I may have a shot at a Schmidt Bender from a friend on the real cheap, so that would be fun if it comes to be!
Tim: the adjustments are marked "1/4 per click, not miliradians. They have a version that has "1/8 per and 1 / 10 mil as well; thought I was ordering the 1 /10 but saw on the order form later I did not. Another good point with 1/4 is that not only is 10x pretty meagher beyond about 300, but the "1/4 get pretty coarse out there, so I would have to get a 300 yard Zero that was dead nuts on or a little "fudging" would be required out there. Long and short, I agree this will likely not be a huge threat beyond 300, but I will do 90 % of my shooting at that (my workplace) range so some ability beyond would be gravy.
I think I am now married to the idea of trying the +20 to see if it works (and might shim and bed if if it is a bit short) as I ordered it and have it in hand already. If I can make the +20 work well, it will stay put; if not, the long range gun will be a Savage round back anyway so a +0 would be purchased and the +20 put away for when I can afford the $3000 in optics (yes, will go big variable on that...maybe Zeiss) ...that will be a while since I just got this and that shoul blow my budget for this year (at least) on new guns!
Thanks again for the great advice...will employ and report!
EDIT#2: Got the Savage the day befor yesterday and have not answered back because I have busy lapping and alingning (pretty minimal, but still wanted to do it) and then using a worn bore brush wrapped with a good tight patch to run USP bore paste up and down the barrel alternating with CLP and Butchs to float the trash out. I will still use around 25 rounds to do the "clean/shoot" thing with but I prefer to "polish" the barrel mechanically with USP as a fine abrasive/polishing compound first; normally do about 200 breech to bore passes this way all told, and it has worked for me. At any rate, this one is already shining like a mirror!
The elevation zero using the +20 MOA turned out to leave me a good 30 clicks after the bore sight @ 75 yards so needing to go for a higher dot zero at 100 will not be required. Having said that, I plan to use the method suggested to see if at the extreme range of my scope (thinking 600 will be the absolute max with any probability of hits on a human silhouette with my 10x mil dot-bar reticle)I can get away with no clicks and use the lockable turrets in hopes of holding a real constant zero. In my experience, outside the very best optics I see (range boss the 300 where I work, see S%B, Nightforce, the new Vortexs, which I think are nice for the $, U.S Optics and Zeiss and recently a 72mm Hensoldt)nothing seems to hold zero perfectly and adjustments are a hit and miss thing; the more you spend, the better all of that seems to be, unsurprsingly. This is another reason that, until I can afford the Nightforce or Schmidt and Bender, the Millett I am making due with will be adjusted less frequently and since its a fixed 10X, the lower level glass won't be as much of a detriment as it would in a zoom scope...we'll see. After bore sighting I did a visual 30 click "box test" and it seemed to be pretty darn close to right on;already a surprise.
Anyway, did'nt want you two to think I had lost interest or did not value your opinions...I certainly do! I most certainly WILL empoy Todd's theory here as soon as a 300 yard session and break in are complete. Thanks again guys, Best,
Bill D.
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First you shouldn't need a 20 MOA base to get you to even 600 yds. Go with standard if that's all the farther you wish to shoot. However, your scope should just get you dialed down to use the crosshair for zero.
But, if you want to take that out farther, just zero the scope on one of the upper mil-dots if you can't get it all the way down to the crosshair. In fact if what you want to do is use the reticle for 'hold-only' most of the time then I'd Zero it @ 100 on the second to the top or the top mil-dot. Then take and calibrate where each top/bottom of each mil-dot and the crosshair shoots. To verify calibration of the reticle.
More specifically, here's what I would do. Zero on the top of the 2nd upper dot. check poi on the bottom of that dot. do the same on the next two dots down and the crosshair. If you're just going to use it for hold then I would maximize it. I would mark the outside of the scope so you don't ever forget your scope will shoot very high when using the crosshairs.
Edit:
You could also just use some .005" shim under the front of the base and that should give you a 15 MOA set-up instead of a 20 MOA set-up. Bed the bases on the rifle to equalize any off-pressure caused by this.
Edit II:
I'll add here too that 10X in really good glass isn't as underpowered as many think. It's about perfect for a 'practical' tactical scope. It gives a pretty good field of view still and you can see your target. One of the problems we all seem to face is we are always trying to hit the nail on the head. We have to remember that's not the point @ 1k. in a tactical situation. Speaking practically, at that range, we are really just trying to hit the board. A 10X is perfectly adequate for that. In fact one thing military instructors have to keep harping on their students about is turning their power down, not up, now that they have more powerful variable scopes. Put in the right perspective, 10X for a tactical scope is about as good as it gets.
Now, if your shooting BR, or for points, the above doesn't apply.
FWIW, using the 'high-zero' is sort of a modification of keeping a long range zero where you would shoot 'hold-unders' at shorter ranges. Instead of aligning your zero to a far out point on the crosshair and noting how much to hold under using the mil-dots, you simply align the highest mil-dot of your choice to a range and notate downward where impacts are. {added: Military instruction nowadays really emphasizes using hold instead of dialing. {specifically pertaining to short range and follow up shots} This is for speed. So you are really on the right track in that regard}
And, if you are going to shoot clear out to 1k, go with the 175's. They have better stability than the 168's. Although with the 1-10" twist, they aren't near as unstable through the transonic range, as in the Remington with the 1-12" twist. IMO, no need to work up two different loads unless the 168's are way cheaper.0 -
1KYDSTR,
Sandwarrior has given you very sound advice. You don't need a 20MOA base, unless you are going past someplace between 600, and 800 with a 308. At 160 clicks, and they are 1/4 MOA, NOT 1/4", that tells me your scope has 40 MOA of adjustment. You shouldn't need more than 10 MOA to get from 100 to 500 meters.
As stated, Todd has given you excellent advice on use of the Mil-Dot system, but, remember, it is all dependant on how square to the bore you have the crosshairs. You might find that 10x is not enough too.
Best
EDIT 1
KYD,
When you do decide to go big variable, there are several out there to fit your needs. I have Zeiss Victory Diavari series, The S&B PM-II, and the NightForce. I hear the new Zeiss -Hensholdt's are real nice, but I also hear lots of good about the Vortex Razor, and Viper series.
There are several out there that are good now days, in the SUPER PREMIUM line ups. My advice, is to get with one system and stick with it. I like my NightForce NP-R1 retical, but I also like the FFP(First Focal Plane) reticle system in the S&B. The FFP reticle comes in handy when you are using your scope to estimate range with, as you can use it on ANY magnification setting. The second focal plane reticles have a specific setting used for ranging. Since most of the stuff I like to, or need to range is beyond 400 yards, the setting that NF uses is highest power, and I like that as well. That is the one I am going to stick with, and most likely will replace the rest of my SUPER PREMIUM scopes with it. NightForce is great too, as they are all assembled here in the USA, and many of them are made start to finnish here too.here is a link for great info on scopes. Alex is great to talk to, and has a vast depth of knowledge on all optics.
http://www.eurooptic.com/default.aspx
Best
EDIT 2
quote:Tim: the adjustments are marked "1/4 per click, not miliradians.
KYD,
A circle is 360 degrees, no matter how you cut it. The degrees are angular measurements, and angles can be broken down further. There are 360 degrees in a circle, and 60 minutes in a degree...HENCE MINUTE OF ANGLE(MOA). There is also another angular measurement, called radians. There is 1000 milradians, in one radian. There are 3.6 MOA per each milradian. Yes, 1 inch is very close to 1MOA, but 1MOA at 100 yards if I am not mistaken is 1.042 inches. So, yes I know your scope may say 1/4" at 100 yards, but make no mistake about it, there are no units of linear measurement used in angular measurement.
Best
EDIT 3
quote:From 3 1/2 low on the first group, I dialed up 4 clicks and it moved exactly one inch? I dialed another 4 and...it went up another inch?! I dialed another 6 and bingo, right in the bullseye?!?! My question is , do you think this might be a result of the +20 MOA mount?
KYD,
Nope, that is not a result of the base. The base is stationary, and does not move. How many clicks did you have to dial your scope at 100 yards? You said you boxed it at 100 yards, doing a 60 click box. How wide was that box?
Hmmmm....got me stumped on that one0 -
So, I got it all broke in and tested for accuracy to 200 yards and gee haw I got a shooter! Time precluded me from getting any work done at 300, but I managed less than 1/2 MOA for 5 shots ("1 group, linear, with two double holers a half inch apart, and the 5th "1/2 away from the top of those)at the end of the day with Hornady 168 gr BTHP 308 match. I'm so excited I could about pee myself!
The 100 yard zero was achieveable and I still have about 60 clicks on the bottom end. My drop to 200 was 3 1/2 inches...right aboout what I would normally expect, perhaps a little more. The odd part is that while all corrections (turrets marked "1/4 100) went according to Hoyle at 100, I found myself making corrections (most of this was elevation as windage was right on from the first shot at 100) that seemed like they were still at 100?! From 3 1/2 low on the first group, I dialed up 4 clicks and it moved exactly one inch? I dialed another 4 and...it went up another inch?! I dialed another 6 and bingo, right in the bullseye?!?! My question is , do you think this might be a result of the +20 MOA mount? The box test was passed with flying colors at 100 (did a 60 click box) and corrections seemed to be as repeatable as could be hoped for; I'm perplexed, although somewhat ambilvilent as it is working thus far. I will go to Lodi and thier 1000 yarder later this summmer once everything is absolutely tested at 300 to see what a fixed 10 can do on a man sized target at those longer ranges, but I need to know roughly how my drop will work befor I go throwing lead downrange and embarrass myself!
Thanks again Tim and Todd for all your help trying to figure this whole thing out! Your help has been invaluable, and Todd really nailed the approach I will be taking on this project in terms of ranging from a mil-dot reticle from one hundred to 1000 yards. If anyone, by the by, is looking to buy a nice, quasi affordable sniper/tactical rifle, I am here to tell you Savage has everybody whooped hands down out of the box...I knew it already, but my luck is not the best so if I get one this good and can get this kind of accuracy out of it, everybody owes it to themselves to give 'em a look! Between 1/3 and 1/2 MOA is normally reserved for $3000 custom built guns with $2500 glass; not an $850 rifle with $500 worth of fixed 10X scope and mount system! Zombies beware...you ain't gettin' within 300 yards of me now!!!
EDIT#1: I'm pretty baffled too. Everything seems to be repeating just fine. At 100 yards,I did 30 clicks left, and 30 clicks up, fired...60 clicks right, fired...60 clicks down, fired...60 clicks left, fired...30 right and 30 up and within an inch of the bullseye again. I came within and inch of a 15 inch square. Moved to 200 and the corrections seem to be metering off at about the same rate of "1/4 at 100?! Makes NO sense to me, although I have not yet, as mentioned, tried it at 300 to see what happens. Just wondering if that upangle on the mount could be causing a false adjustment routine because of the trajectory being so upangled from the start?
EDIT#2: Yeah, as the King would say, "...is a puzzlement!". I wonder (and yes, I AM grasping at straws here) if perhaps the bullet is beginning to lose trajectory at that range and is starting downward noticeably, but not at the same rate of normal, noted drop with a standard base? Wish I had either done a box test at 200 to see if the box expanded at expected rate, or shot some at 300 after zeroing at 200 to see if the adjustments then were at an accelerated rate...will have to try that out next time. Scratching my head, but still happy as a pig in poop considering my low-end investment with this rig! Entire set-up came in at $1420. Was shooting mine @ 200 at the same time my pal with his new Penrod (6mm Ackley Improved) and Leupold target scope was shooting the same distance...he's a little upset at this point, hee hee! $3500 for that one.0 -
Kyd,
It's as good as dirt clods and BB guns will ever get! Very glad to hear the rifle is shooting like a champ right out of the box.[;)] [:D] Although, I got ya beat... I got a near new .308 Tactical (owner couldn't have shot more'n 100 rds through it) for $400. Topped it with a 10X IOR and an EGW 20 MOA and it's hitting .5 MOA. I decided though, I didn't like the stock so I got a Bell and Carlson tactical (they make them now for both 4.4" and 4.27" centers) and it's not only shooting lights out still, I'm now shooting lights out with comfort and no strain while shooting. All told, $900 {edit: sorry $1100 w/stock } into that gun.[8D][:D]0
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