44 Mag vs 30 30
If I am correct the ballistics of these are similar. If, why would anyone think a 44 Mag revolver would be good backup for a Grizzly bear. No sane person would want to have backup with a 30 30.
Are someones gonads swollen maybe?
Sage 1
Are someones gonads swollen maybe?
Sage 1
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There are two things.
Portability. You can't get a .30-30 in a shoulder holster.
Perceptions. Said long ago, before there was a .44 Magnum, but about the .357 Magnum. Strange how people think a 158 grain bullet at 1510 fps is a big powerful revolver suitable for all game; but consider a 150 grain rifle bullet at 1500 fps to be suitable only for small game and target practice.0 -
Doubtless there will be a lot of input addressing things like b.c., sectional density, bullet construction, etc. but in a nutshell,
"Amen!"
Hopefully some attention will be given to the difference between killing and stopping; VERY different concepts when dealing with large and dangerous critters.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Sage1
If I am correct the ballistics of these are similar. If, why would anyone think a 44 Mag revolver would be good backup for a Grizzly bear. No sane person would want to have backup with a 30 30.
Are someones gonads swollen maybe?
Sage 1
First of all, the ballistics are NOT similar.
.44 magnum from a handgun fires a HEAVIER and WIDER bullet (say 240g vs 150) and fires it SLOWER than a 30-30 (1550 fps vs 2400). By kinetic energy the 30-30 is more powerful, at least when you do the rifle vs pistol comparison. .44 magnum looks a lot better if you compare "power factor" (ie momentum) and bullet cross sectional area, both of which are probably better measures of actual killing power.
If you want to do that sort of comparison, with the right loads, a .357 magnum from a RIFLE will approximate 30/30 ballistics.
Anyway, the answer to the question is that a .44 magnum is the default backup bear gun because for quite a long time it was the most powerful commonly available handgun cartridge.
Keys being HANDGUN. . .unlike a rifle, this is something that is potentially strapped to your hip and easily portable. . .and COMMONLY available.
Ultimately, NOTHING that comes out of a handgun is going to be an ideal choice for shooting a angry 1500 lb bear. A .44 magnum isn't much, but its a heck of a lot better than being caught by a brown bear with nothing but your wang in your hand!
Better than a 30-30 at close range, the most effective/readily available anti-bear weapon is a 12 gauge shotgun with slugs. . .but this is not as portable as a revolver, obviously.
Edit: Just to expand on what TSR mentioned below, the "Taylor knock out factor" is one of several available formulas purported to estimate the real world "stopping power" of a given round. Taylor KO is computed by multiplying the momentum of the round (mass x velocity) by the bullet diameter (caliber). By its nature, the formula tends to favor big heavy bullets at medium velocity. How well it works in the real world is debatable, but for what its worth, a .44 magnum actually exceeds the .30/30 using this particular measurement, at least at the muzzle.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Sage1
If I am correct the ballistics of these are similar.
Sage 1
I do not believe that you are correct.
A 44 Mag 240-grain JSP @ 1250 fps MV does not come close to a 170-grain JFP @2200 fps MV in my learned opinion. The ME is 868 ft lb versus 1827 ft lb!
Would I use a 44 Mag in bear country?... I most surely would. A properly placed shot in the throat, neck, or head will take a bear down every time.
Would I use a 30-30 to hunt bear?... No I would not. Would I use it as a close-range back-up?... Sure. Again, a properly place shot will kill the bear.0 -
While there are probably better choices than a .30/30 for grizzly bears, if thats all you have you may want to check out Buffalo Bore's new load for it. It pushes a 190 grain Hawk bullet to 2100 fps and 1860 ft lbs of energy out of a 20" carbine. http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=222
They designed this load for elk & moose and as a bear back up load.0 -
There is NOTHING similar about the ballistics of the 44 Magnum, and the 30-30. The 30-30 can be made to do only so much, while the 44 magnum does have it going in the big bear protection field.
The reason I say this, is the 44 magnum is substantially larger in diameter, and can be seriously weighty. Big diameter, hardcast bullets that weigh a lot, are what we are looking for.
Those that look at kinetic energy alone, are naive as to thinking what are good big critter stoppers. Ask the fella's who do it for a living...45-70 Gov't., 450 Marlin, 12 gauge, 500 S&W, 460 S&W, 454 Casull, 44 Magnum...all have large Taylor factors...many have Taylor factors that are larger than most belted magnums, or todays super magnums that have no belt. The Taylor factor is more of a measure of a bullets momentum, and ability to drive thru, and impart energy to a target, rather than just how much energy is available to the target.
So to answer your question...yes a 44 Magnum loaded with 300-400 grain hardcast, keith style bullets, would make a great backup. You definately want more than the 240 grain.
Now, carrying over from another thread, where it was said that the best defense is to be alert in bear country and not do anything stupid to provoke them. While I agree with most of this, most humans do not think like a wildlife biologist, and there are inevitably going to be confrontations with humans and bears. The 44 magnum is most likely going to be with you while hiking or jogging in the wilds, where the trusty heavy rifle will not, unless you are hunting. It is best to be prepared, lest it be like taking a knife to a gunfight.
Best
EDIT 1
Michibay,
Yes, I did look at that thread, and hence my post about carrying over from another thread. Not all of humanity are wildlife experts, and there are bound to be confrontations...no way around it. In those instances it is better to be prepared, than not, no matter what your profession is. The only to totally PREVENT a bear attack, or confrontation would be to encase yourself inside 4 concrete walls, as we do have bears breaking in homes and camps in the Adirondack region of NY. I'm fairly certain that is not the only region, or state it happens in either.
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Sage1- Take whatever rifle/shotgun you want, but the 44 Magnum revolver should be there no matter what only as a backup. If you can get yourself a .50 revolver, even better.
I'm a very big 44 Magnum lover/owner/shooter, but I'd be carrying it secondary to a large rifle/shotgun anytime I was in Grizzly country...period.
Had to lay down and play dead one time in my life while a large Black Bear sniffed me, didn't like it very much.0 -
Watching Alaska State Troopers on NGC, their preferred weapon of choice seems to be a 12 ga shotgun with slugs.
While I carry a 44magnum (and 10mm Glock) while in bear and mountain lion country, that is only because they are the largest guns I can carry without being burdened down and having both arms free.0 -
Take a look at my response on a similar question (thread) entitled: Super Redhawk 44 Mag Alaskan regarding FOREST SERVICE STUDY...THANKS!!!! 0 -
Professional guides in Wyoming and Montana are not allowed by law to carry a rifle. Hand gun of choise by some of the guides I know is the OM Ruger Vaquero 44mag in the 5 1/2 barrel. My 2 cents [8D] 0
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