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SA XD in 10MM

tr fox
Read some talk about SA selling a XD subcompact in 10MM.. I have paid a lot of attention over the years to the functioning difference in various popular calibers and in my non-expert, humble opinion I doubt SA will ever sell a 10MM, at least not in a subcompact. Reason being that over the years I have read about and personally observed that many and various manufacturers, when they finally down-size their full sized .45ACP for example, they have to go to tremendous engineering and testing expense to get the .45 to function reliably in the 3 in sub-compact barrel and related sub-compact parts. Something to do with "lock-time," proper recoil spring strength for the shorter, quicker recoil and maybe even something to do with the ramp angle.

I have read many times from people who know a lot more than me that a 3 in barrel is hard to make work for the .45 and it would be impossible to go shorter than that. Also, have you ever noticed how it seems like most of the gun manufacturers, when they finally do build a sub-compact, the barrel is no shorter that 3 & 1/2 inches? If my observations are correct on that, then it tells me the manufacturers want to avoid the 3 in barrel problems.

So, a sub-compact 10MM, with that long case compared to a .40, would maybe require a longer slide and ejection port and other changes to accommodate the longer 10MM case.

Now I am not trying to be a gun designer or some kind of know it all, I am merely posting what I have observed and because of that what I now think. Anybody know for sure?
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Comments

10 comments

Date Votes
  • tsr1965
    I agree with you, somewhat, but it is not because of the cartridge ccase length. it is because of the high pressure that the 10mm generates. It is hell on wheels on the full sized guns, and no way, would there be enough slide weight in a compact or sub compact to keep the gun from self destructing.

    I have seen report that the Witness compact in 10 is OK with the mild FBI 10mm loading, but when you put the Silvertips, Double Tap, Norma, or the Buffalo Bore rounds in it, it breaks the frame on both the polymer, and metal framed compacts. Yes, I know you can put a stiff spring in it to compensate for some of this, but not all of it.

    S&W does make a 2" 45 ACP that functions flawlessly...but it is a revolver...[:D][:D][:D]

    Best
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  • Juggernaut
    It can be done and is not only very possible but quite practical as the subcompact was not meant to be a target gun but for close in personal protection and the 10mm in a subcompact would definitely provide that. SA would amongst other design engineering have to reinforce the XD to accommodate for the higher pressure 10mm and go through each step in its nomenclature to ensure safety and effectiveness. Glock has one in the Glock 29 10mm subcompact and they function just fine without any problems that I am aware of and around 800 people so far are pushing for it on the petition so it cant be that bad of an idea just one that is isolated to a select group. So there is no reason that another quality gun manufacturer could not achieve the same and in the SA XD would be a great subcompact and in 10mm, looking forward to it. The main issue here is more money than design as the SA XD is as proven as Glock however will it be cost effective to SA to manufacture it and only time will tell as they are considering it.
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  • tsr1965
    quote:Originally posted by Juggernaut
    It can be done and is not only very possible but quite practical as the subcompact was not meant to be a target gun but for close in personal protection and the 10mm in a subcompact would definitely provide that. SA would amongst other design engineering have to reinforce the XD to accommodate for the higher pressure 10mm and go through each step in its nomenclature to ensure safety and effectiveness. Glock has one in the Glock 29 10mm subcompact and they function just fine without any problems that I am aware of and around 800 people so far are pushing for it on the petition so it cant be that bad of an idea just one that is isolated to a select group. So there is no reason that another quality gun manufacturer could not achieve the same and in the SA XD would be a great subcompact and in 10mm, looking forward to it. The main issue here is more money than design as the SA XD is as proven as Glock however will it be cost effective to SA to manufacture it and only time will tell as they are considering it.


    The G29 is not a sub-compact, it is a COMPACT. You need to understand, that this has been hashed around for years, especially when the high capacity ban in 1994 came into effect. A lot of the manufacturer's started building double stack pistols around the 10 round limit. That is where the G29, and G30 came from. S&W also done a 1016, and stopped it very shortly into production, because of cracked frames. The 10mm round, loaded to its full potential, is 3 times more punishing than a 45+P round to a handgun. Even the first 1911's, the early Delta Elite's were cracking frames on full sized slides, untill they put in a buffer, and heavier spring. But only so much can be done with a spring. For the time being, the smallest 10mm one can get is the G29...Period. That is where technology, and the liability lawyer's have left off. With the amount of demand, or should I say the lack of(the 10mm is like the 41 magnum, has a small, but loyal following), don't look forward to the future for any small 10mm's on the market.

    800 people on a petition, doesn't even wet the bottom of the bucket, when versed against the time and cost of development, and ramped production, just to produce around 1000 or so pieces? Most manufacturers will not even think about a special run of an existing product for under 500 pieces.

    Best
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  • Juggernaut
    quote:Originally posted by tsr1965
    The G29 is not a sub-compact, it is a COMPACT. You need to understand, that this has been hashed around for years, especially when the high capacity ban in 1994 came into effect. A lot of the manufacturer's started building double stack pistols around the 10 round limit. That is where the G29, and G30 came from. S&W also done a 1016, and stopped it very shortly into production, because of cracked frames. The 10mm round, loaded to its full potential, is 3 times more punishing than a 45+P round to a handgun. Even the first 1911's, the early Delta Elite's were cracking frames on full sized slides, untill they put in a buffer, and heavier spring. But only so much can be done with a spring. For the time being, the smallest 10mm one can get is the G29...Period. That is where technology, and the liability lawyer's have left off. With the amount of demand, or should I say the lack of(the 10mm is like the 41 magnum, has a small, but loyal following), don't look forward to the future for any small 10mm's on the market.
    800 people on a petition, doesn't even wet the bottom of the bucket, when versed against the time and cost of development, and ramped production, just to produce around 1000 or so pieces? Most manufacturers will not even think about a special run of an existing product for under 500 pieces.
    Best

    From the Glock website:
    GLOCK 29 Multi purpose 10
    Superior versatility in the high-performance
    caliber 10mm: through reduced dimensions
    compared with the standard size GLOCK 20,
    the subcompact GLOCK 29 is also suitable for
    concealed carry. In addition to the use as backup weapon for hunting, more and more security personnel on patrol duty appreciate the comfortable firing characteristics and the grip ergonomics of the GLOCK 29 with a standard magazine capacity of 10 rounds.

    The Glock 29 is listed with Glock (the manufacturer) as a subcompact and is capable of using the 15 round Glock 20 magazine as opposed to the 10 round magazine, so that is good enough for me. And while 800 people may not be many to you in terms of consideration of interest in a specialized firearm it is to some however and enough that SA is considering it according to them. And like I already said it comes down to money over design because they can obviously be produced successfully. Interest in the SA XD 10mm is not expected to be a seller like the standard 1911 or anything as even the 1911 double stack is not, yet few are made and production continues.
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  • tsr1965
    quote:Originally posted by Juggernaut
    quote:Originally posted by tsr1965
    The G29 is not a sub-compact, it is a COMPACT. You need to understand, that this has been hashed around for years, especially when the high capacity ban in 1994 came into effect. A lot of the manufacturer's started building double stack pistols around the 10 round limit. That is where the G29, and G30 came from. S&W also done a 1016, and stopped it very shortly into production, because of cracked frames. The 10mm round, loaded to its full potential, is 3 times more punishing than a 45+P round to a handgun. Even the first 1911's, the early Delta Elite's were cracking frames on full sized slides, untill they put in a buffer, and heavier spring. But only so much can be done with a spring. For the time being, the smallest 10mm one can get is the G29...Period. That is where technology, and the liability lawyer's have left off. With the amount of demand, or should I say the lack of(the 10mm is like the 41 magnum, has a small, but loyal following), don't look forward to the future for any small 10mm's on the market.
    800 people on a petition, doesn't even wet the bottom of the bucket, when versed against the time and cost of development, and ramped production, just to produce around 1000 or so pieces? Most manufacturers will not even think about a special run of an existing product for under 500 pieces.
    Best

    From the Glock website:
    GLOCK 29 Multi purpose 10
    Superior versatility in the high-performance
    caliber 10mm: through reduced dimensions
    compared with the standard size GLOCK 20,
    the subcompact GLOCK 29 is also suitable for
    concealed carry. In addition to the use as backup weapon for hunting, more and more security personnel on patrol duty appreciate the comfortable firing characteristics and the grip ergonomics of the GLOCK 29 with a standard magazine capacity of 10 rounds.

    The Glock 29 is listed with Glock (the manufacturer) as a subcompact and is capable of using the 15 round Glock 20 magazine as opposed to the 10 round magazine, so that is good enough for me. And while 800 people may not be many to you in terms of consideration of interest in a specialized firearm it is to some however and enough that SA is considering it according to them. And like I already said it comes down to money over design because they can obviously be produced successfully. Interest in the SA XD 10mm is not expected to be a seller like the standard 1911 or anything as even the 1911 double stack is not, yet few are made and production continues.


    Of course it is listed by Glock as a subcompact, but it is bigger than my G19...so you tell me if it is a compact, or sub compact. I have the G19, G20, and G29 to compare, not just thinking about getting them. The subcompact G26 holds 10 rounds of 9mm, and no way in hell are you going to fit 10 rounds of 10mm in it. Sorry if you can't accept that the G29 is as small as it is going to get right now, sub compact, or what ever you want to call it, 800folks on a petition are not going to make a difference to the bean counters as SA. They are not the politicians at Washington DC.

    Best
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  • Juggernaut
    quote:Originally posted by tsr1965
    Of course it is listed by Glock as a subcompact, but it is bigger than my G19...so you tell me if it is a compact, or sub compact. I have the G19, G20, and G29 to compare, not just thinking about getting them. The subcompact G26 holds 10 rounds of 9mm, and no way in hell are you going to fit 10 rounds of 10mm in it. Sorry if you can't accept that the G29 is as small as it is going to get right now, sub compact, or what ever you want to call it, 800folks on a petition are not going to make a difference to the bean counters as SA. They are not the politicians at Washington DC.
    Best

    Of course its large its a 10mm, I don't say anything as I am not Glock and its there gun, their design and their listing so if they say that its a subcompact then its a subcompact. Although you can take it up with them that you do not agree with them, however I doubt that you will get anywhere with that but that's your decision. So you have a Glock 19, Glock 20, and Glock 29 thats good however really makes no difference as I have looked at them plenty of times as well and fired them, just because I don't have them yet is really irrelevant. I would hope that you wouldn't try and put a 10mm cartridge into a Glock 26 which is 9x19mm as it wasn't designed for that. Like I said its not my decision nor up to me to accept anything as to make the SA XD in 10mm I just support it is all. Although as do at least 800 other people support it as well as persons on the SA XD forums who support it and apparently it does make all the difference. And like I said SA is considering it because of that 'small interest' however its money over design so again only time will tell along with the SA design team and SA execs, their words not mine and has nothing to do with washington dc? or whatever. Arguing is pointless as everyone has an opinion and it is futile to try and convince the other of your subjective point.
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  • tr fox
    The SA XD subcompact has a 3" barrel. I haven't check recently, but I believe all the Glock subcompacts have a 3 & 1/2 inch barrel. Therefore the Glock barrel, being 1/2 inch longer than the XD 3", but with Glock still calling their gun a "sub-compact" tell me 3 things.

    #1. It adds truth to my orginal position.

    #2 It tells me that Glock is never going to make a 3" subcompact handgun.

    #3. When you try to design a 3 inch barrel for a big and/or powerful cartridge, you run into all kinds of unexpected engineering problems.
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  • tsr1965
    quote:Originally posted by tr fox
    The SA XD subcompact has a 3" barrel. I haven't check recently, but I believe all the Glock subcompacts have a 3 & 1/2 inch barrel. Therefore the Glock barrel, being 1/2 inch longer than the XD 3", but with Glock still calling their gun a "sub-compact" tell me 3 things.

    #1. It adds truth to my orginal position.

    #2 It tells me that Glock is never going to make a 3" subcompact handgun.

    #3. When you try to design a 3 inch barrel for a big and/or powerful cartridge, you run into all kinds of unexpected engineering problems.


    tr fox,

    Yes, you are correct in all 3.

    1. 3 1/2 inches is as good as it is going to get, as the extra slide weight is needed to tame the slide speed, so the gun does not self destruct.

    2. I am sure Glock and other's have tried. Para Ordnance once had cataloged a 3 inch 10mm, but never brung it to market, as it self destructed. It was a steel frame too, not an alloy. You can compensate for slide weight, using a REAL heavy spring, but it would rip off your finger prints, trying to rack the slide.

    3. Yes, good old physics do apply. Sometimes we can overcome the laws of some physics, but the majority of the time, not. This happens to be in the majority of times.

    I am sure if there were more demand, there would be a greater effort to the R&D end of it, but it is gooing to take a lot more than 1000 or two people on a petition. Most folks are real happy with the 45 ACp, as it has been doing a great job for the last 100 years. It has developed a reputation, as the BEST, for what it was designed to do. The 10mm, like the 41 magnum, has a small but loyal following. Not enough to make firearm manufacturers offer too many new offerings, or should we say new platforms, unless it will work on an old one. There is not going to be a lot of R&D added to it, as the risk factor of payback is really high.

    Best
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  • beantownshootah
    800 people signing an internet petition? That's laughable.

    Lets say for the sake of argument that Springfield could market subcompact 10mm pistols at $750 each (which is questionable). Since Springfield is going to sell them through distributors, its own wholesale price may be $500 each. And lets say that every single one of the 800 petition signers actually follows through and buys the gun (something that realistically is never going to happen, no matter how good their intentions).

    So merely to break EVEN Springfield has $400,000 to come up with a design (they can't just re-chamber a .40SW. . .its probably not strong enough), prototype it, test it, work out the kinks, tool up, manufacture it, advertise it, and distribute it. Even if they could pull this off (which is questionable. . .I strongly doubt it), they'd barely make any money doing it. They have to sell at least tens of thousands of these guns for the project to be worth the risk and investment in time, reputation and capital.

    Meanwhile the demand for even FULL-sized 10mms is relatively low. The demand for subcompact ones probably doesn't justify the investment.

    In terms of feasibility, of course its *possible* to come up with a 3 inch barrel 10mm semiauto gun that won't blow up. But there are all sorts of technical barriers to doing so, given the high pressure of the round. The gun may have to be really heavy (ie all steel, not polymer) and use a heavy slide to retard slide-frame impact. Some kind of buffer will probably be necessary. . .meaning it will have to be changed out every so many shots. The gun itself will probably be ammo-sensitive and may only run well using ammo at a certain weight, velocity and bullet shape. It will likely require super-heavy weight springs that make the gun difficult to charge, and that also need to be changed frequently. It may not be possible to get a gun like this designed within at a price point that would cause anyone to buy one.

    Lastly. . .(and more important than ALL of the above). . .I question the benefit of the entire project.

    As one example, a 3" 10mm would put out a Corbon 165 grain bullet at 1150 fps. Ballistic data here: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/10mm.html

    Meanwhile, a 3" .40SW would put out the same Corbon 165 grain bullet at 1085 fps. Ballistic data here: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/40sw.html

    Do the "Pepsi challenge" and with this barrel length and most commercial rounds, you'd be lucky to get another 100 feet per second going with 10mm over .40SW.

    10mm is a great round. . .but from a 3" barreled pistol, you lose most of the advantage, and IMO the little bit extra you'd get in a 3" barreled pistol is simply not worth the extra costs of the ammo, gun, etc.
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  • Juggernaut
    Tell them that, have seen it before and they have already acknowledged it however you might want to advise them otherwise.
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