22-250 For Deer Contin.....
The topic was locked, and with the .22-250 being my most used and favorite caliber, I had to get my 2 cents in. [:p]
Like already mentioned, the number of deer wounded with larger calibers is extremely large every year. The number of deer I HAVE SEEN wounded with smaller calibers is extremely small every year. The guy/gal using the smaller caliber is usaully much more comfortable with his rifle(it kicks way less!), knows his/her limitations, and is using a bullet that will get the job done. I have heard many say that you "can't kill a deer with a .22-250." What a joke! You may not feel comfortable in doing so and in that case you are better off not, but many of us know that it is a VERY efficient and capable round for deer sized game.
My old man shot a 140 lb. whitetail a few seasons ago with his .375 H&H Magnum at about 50 yards. Hit her right in the lungs and passed through leaving a .375" diameter hole. The deer proceeded to take off and run 100 yards before a 2nd shot dropped her. That same year, I got a chance to go hunt Russian Boar and used my .22-250(loaded with 45 gr. Barnes TSX bullets) to drop a 300+ lb. boar. The shot was less then 50 yards, broke both front shoulders and left a wicked-big exit hole. Didn't take a step after he was hit. Tell me again that a .22-250 is too small for the job....I will never trust another work you preach[;)]
Jon
Like already mentioned, the number of deer wounded with larger calibers is extremely large every year. The number of deer I HAVE SEEN wounded with smaller calibers is extremely small every year. The guy/gal using the smaller caliber is usaully much more comfortable with his rifle(it kicks way less!), knows his/her limitations, and is using a bullet that will get the job done. I have heard many say that you "can't kill a deer with a .22-250." What a joke! You may not feel comfortable in doing so and in that case you are better off not, but many of us know that it is a VERY efficient and capable round for deer sized game.
My old man shot a 140 lb. whitetail a few seasons ago with his .375 H&H Magnum at about 50 yards. Hit her right in the lungs and passed through leaving a .375" diameter hole. The deer proceeded to take off and run 100 yards before a 2nd shot dropped her. That same year, I got a chance to go hunt Russian Boar and used my .22-250(loaded with 45 gr. Barnes TSX bullets) to drop a 300+ lb. boar. The shot was less then 50 yards, broke both front shoulders and left a wicked-big exit hole. Didn't take a step after he was hit. Tell me again that a .22-250 is too small for the job....I will never trust another work you preach[;)]
Jon
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+1 to Sig220. Just check on how many hogs, antelope and deer have been taken cleanly from Texas to North Dakota with a .223 or 22-250 with proper bullets and shot placement. 0 -
The op started another thread also.
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=531177
That is an awesome testimonial on that boar! I have broken both shoulders on a large body whitetail buck at 200 yards with a 223 Remington, using the original barnes coated bullet...the 45 grain XLC. People just don't understand how, and why Barnes work like they do.
Best
EDIT 1
swearengine,
I cannot speak for Sig220, but I have killed deer with a 223 with a 40 grain Ballistic tip at 3700 FPS, put BEHIND the shoulder, angling forward, and taking out both lungs. In fact, the internal pressure was so great, that it blew the lungs out the nose of the deer about 8 feet in front of it, all over the pretty white snow. The deer went 3 feet...straight down. This shot was inside the 150 yard marker.
I done a similar feat, on a very large doe, using a 243, and a 55 grain Ballistic Tip, leaving the muzzle between 4100, and 4200 FPS. The shot was at 250 yards. The result was the same, except there was no snow. Light, frangable bullets will work, but you have to keep in mind, their construction, when using them, and place your shot accordingly, and avoid heavy bone(except for a head or spine shot).
In the other side of the coin, the deer I killed with the 223, and the 45 grain XLC bullet thru the shoulders was at 200 yards, it broke both shoulders, and took out the lungs, and top of the heart. The deer never took a step.
I have, in my younger days, shot a buck 3 times with a 300 Win Mag, that came off a drive. All three shots went thru the chest, and the lungs were destroyed. The deer ran 300 yards before it dropped. I have also seen them not hit in the vitals, keep on running...no matter what size gun was being used.
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quote:Originally posted by Sig220_Ruger77
The topic was locked, and with the .22-250 being my most used and favorite caliber, I had to get my 2 cents in. [:p]
Like already mentioned, the number of deer wounded with larger calibers is extremely large every year. The number of deer I HAVE SEEN wounded with smaller calibers is extremely small every year. The guy/gal using the smaller caliber is usaully much more comfortable with his rifle(it kicks way less!), knows his/her limitations, and is using a bullet that will get the job done. I have heard many say that you "can't kill a deer with a .22-250." What a joke! You may not feel comfortable in doing so and in that case you are better off not, but many of us know that it is a VERY efficient and capable round for deer sized game.
My old man shot a 140 lb. whitetail a few seasons ago with his .375 H&H Magnum at about 50 yards. Hit her right in the lungs and passed through leaving a .375" diameter hole. The deer proceeded to take off and run 100 yards before a 2nd shot dropped her. That same year, I got a chance to go hunt Russian Boar and used my .22-250(loaded with 45 gr. Barnes TSX bullets) to drop a 300+ lb. boar. The shot was less then 50 yards, broke both front shoulders and left a wicked-big exit hole. Didn't take a step after he was hit. Tell me again that a .22-250 is too small for the job....I will never trust another work you preach[;)]
Jon
The doe your father shot with the 375 was dead and did not require a second shot. If you had put the 22-250 through the lungs you would have had the same scenario.
EDIT 1
tsr1965; I simply said the deer shot with 375 was dead and you would have the same scenario with the 22-250.
I too have seen instantaneous drops with small caliber, high velocity cartridges and I have seen them run a distance before tipping over. I have seen instantaneous drops with large caliber, slow velocity cartridges and I have seen them run a distance before tipping over. I have seen instantaneous drops with medium caliber, medium velocity cartridges and I have seen them run a distance before tipping over. I have seen instantaneous drops with large caliber, extremely slow velocity muzzle loaders and I have seen them run a distance before tipping over.
The point is, putting a bullet through both lungs will cause an animal to tip over and die at some point. The events leading up to point of placing the bullet have everything to do with what happens next; a deer that has been driven or is alarmed versus one that is calm and relaxed.
As a professional hunter, outfitter, and guide I have had the pleasure(and sometimes displeasure) of witnessing all types of shots and eventually dissecting shot placement. I have found numerous old bullet wounds in recovered animals that had been shot with both small and large caliber firearms.
My opinion is that small caliber firearms for hunting are best left in the hands of HUNTERS (not shooters who have only shot off the bench) who are capable of placing their shot precisely, and are willing to forego a shot offered for a better shot at a later time. It is my opinion that large caliber, magnum rifles do not make up for lack of experience. It is my opinion that inexperienced hunters are better served with a medium caliber, medium velocity cartridge such as the 6.5x55 Swedish mauser or the 7x57 Mauser.0 -
In Jack O'Connor's book "The Hunting Rifle" on page 283...he talks about a friend who killed a Grizzly "instantly" with a 22-250 after the first round hit a rib and blew-up. The second shot went between the ribs! 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Michibay
In Jack O'Connor's book "The Hunting Rifle" on page 283...he talks about a friend who killed a Grizzly "instantly" with a 22-250 after the first round hit a rib and blew-up. The second shot went between the ribs!
It is a much better world today, than it was back in Jack O.'s day, as far as innovation in materials, and bullet design goes. Not that some of Jack's ideals were not on track, but most of the stuff from today is way ahead of his theories. I can assure you, had that been a Barnes X, XLC, or TSX bullet, it would not have blew up on the rib of a grizzly. They have no core to seperate or discentigrate upon contact with hard objects, such as bone.
When you get a grasp on the capabilities of the Barnes all copper bullets, then you will understand. Grab yourself a box of the Federal loads with the 50 grain TSX bullets in, and like Rufe-Snow, and Nononsense have described, you will become a believer.
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THANKS tsr1965...I did not know about the Federal ammo available with copper bullets...sounds like the "ticket" for my young grandson to use for deer. I will be giving him my Winchester Model 70A that has a 22" sporter weight barrel in 22-250.
Best to you TOO!!!!0 -
To me the question about .22-250 barely makes sense.
-Plenty of people hunt deer with .357 magnum pistols, which are far less powerful than something like a .22/250.
-People routinely hunt (ok poach. . .but the process is the same) deers with .22LR and .22 magnum, again, similar caliber, but FAR FAR less energy.
-People successfully hunt deers with bows and arrows.
-In some cases, people successfully hunt deer with an atlatl.
So **OF COURSE** you can successfully hunt a deer with a .22/250. Its just a question of using the appropriate ammunition (ie NOT varmint ammo!) and being able to put the bullet in the right place.
If you can do that, a .22/250 can work fine, and if you can't it won't.
In my mind, to the extent that there is a question here, its:
a. Are there better rounds out there than .22/250 for deer hunting? (Answer. . .probably yes).
b. If you're going to use a .22/250 for deer hunting, whats the best round to use? (I can't answer this one, having zero experience shooting deers with .22s).
As a relevant side issue here, and dovetailing with the above discussion, about 15 years ago the South Carolina department of natural resources conducted a pretty good study looking at the effects of various types of calibers, with different loads at different distances to see what rounds worked best, what type of shot placement, etc.
They looked at HUNDREDS of deer hunts using different calibers, and controlled for distance, shot placement, and type of round (within limits, of course). In other words, they took this away from the anecdotal observations of a few individuals into an objective and reasonably thorough investigation of what works and how well.
Here is all the info, and its well worth a look:
http://www.dnr.sc.gov/wildlife/deer/articlegad.html
The more relevant conclusions they reached are:
a. Shot placement is FAR more important than caliber (which actually makes very little difference in outcome).
b. With the expected exception of a spine shot (that causes instant paralysis), no matter WHERE the bullet hits, some significant percentage of shot deer (up to 50%) are going to run after hit, on average roughly 50 yards, even with shots that completely destroy their hearts and/or lungs.
c. Expanding/soft point type bullets actually do perform significantly better than hard ones.0 -
I've always used a .30-06 and similar sized rifles for deer, although two years ago while in Australia I shot three kangaroos (roughly 100 lbs live weight) with a Browning A-bolt in 223 super short. The owner of the rifle said that he lost several kangaroos when using 55 grain bullets, so he went to 63 grain bullets for greatly improved results.
The chest of a kangaroo is not as large as a whitetail deer, but the way those 63 rain bullets dropped them left little doubt that similar results could be made on deer, antelope, etc.
With proper bullets, and proper shot placement, the .22-250 should be deadly.0 -
Yo , the plural of Deer is Deer ! No matter what they are shot with ! 0 -
AND THEN you have my story. Last year in PENN. I shot a small doe with my .270. It dropped like a rock. When I had it butchered the butcher asked me how many times I had shot it? I said once. He responded well I found these other two bullets in it. They were 22-250's. What a mess!!! 0 -
The butcher should stick to cutting meat. You can't tell a 22-250 slug from 22 Hornet or any other 22 centerfire. 0 -
We all know anything can be killed by any gun/caliber combination if all goes well. Hell, I've seen healthy 250 pound parolees killed by a single .25 ACP round, and my family used .22 LR's to kill calves, goats, and sheep for years. As for the "greater number of wounded by larger calibers" argument it's simple math; more people use deer caliber rifles on deer as opposed to varmint caliber rifles. Bad shots with large calibers are just as wounding as bad shots with varmint ones, and if there are more folks using them, chances are there will be more wounds from them.
All I can say is if there are options available that are better than a .224 caliber bullet on deer, hogs, bear, bison, whatever; I suggest using it. It's like strapping on snowshoes to run track, a handicap that may, possibly, affect the outcome of your trip. Why do that? Example: a good friend of mine uses a .17 Rem on mule deer. He swears by it, and claims not to have lost a single one. And since he's head-shooting them, no meat loss to that 25 grain slug either. He also lives on a very, VERY large New Mexico spread, and has all season to pick and choose his shots. He'll pass up 20 shots to get the one that the .17 will do cleanly. In his world there is no reason to go with anything else. I know very few people who live in that type of world, adn I know no one else who would consider a .17 Rem as an appropriate (or legal) deer round.
If you're not so lucky, and have to take a shot at a distance or an angle that is not perfect for the small pill you've chosen on the last day of your one annual hunt; are you going to take the less-than-optimum shot with a .224 cal rifle to salvage the 1k+ you just spent on your gun, tags, ammo, travel, lodging, food, etc?? A larger more appropriate caliber is better suited for just that. (I'm not saying take bad shots, because bad shots are bad no mattter what is used.) Think about it, if you own a .270 that has the horses to take the game cleanly with the angle you have, but the .22-250 you brought instead doesn't have the oomph to do it, are you still going to chance it?
The issue should be an ethical one; not can it or will it, but SHOULD it. I personally think there are better options than .224 caliber rounds for the vast majority of deer/bear/hog hunters.0 -
I think that it's important to point out that unsubstantiated opinions are simply that, someone's opinion without being backed up by experience or fact. This is what takes place when folks get on an emotional tear of 'righteousness' or 'ethical' subjectiveness regarding cartridge/bullet selection for hunting along with dozens of other topics yet unnamed.
Also there is the use of comparatives and superlatives. From another source:
Then there are the irregular forms of comparatives and superlatives, formed by neither "-er/-est" nor "more/most":
* good - better - best
* little - less - least
* bad - worse - worst
These can be broken down further as in this list:
Positive_____ Comparative_____ Superlative
good________ better__________ best
bad_________ worse__________ worst
little_________ littler, less______ littlest, least
far__________ farther, further___ farthest, furthest
Most of us, myself included, can be found guilty of overusing comparatives in our assessments of products and services discussed here. However, if all of the bullets discussed actually resulted in a deer being harvested, there is no differentiation of good, better, best. They all performed there job.
"All I can say is if there are options available that are better than a .224 caliber bullet on deer..."
An option sure, but a better option, no. When used with a proper bullet and proper placement, the result is the same, not good, better, best.
"If you're not so lucky, and have to take a shot at a distance or an angle that is not perfect..."
First and foremost, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO TAKE A SHOT!
The cartridge and bullet combination has nothing to do with this whatsoever. If the shot is not what you need to harvest an animal, don't take it. Walk away or rather, let the animal walk away. Nothing states that you HAVE to take a shot, ever. This applies to any cartridge and bullet combination including but not limited to the .22-250 through the .585 Nyati. There are no guarantees in hunting. Sometimes you win and harvest game while other times you go home empty handed. Sure it's no fun to end a hunting trip (I don't care what it cost) with nothing physically to show for it but that's what happens sometimes. Take the good times and camaraderie and be grateful for the time spent out in the field doing something you love.
A miss or badly placed shot is still a miss or badly placed shot NO MATTER WHICH CARTRIDGE/BULLET IS CHOSEN. If the animal is harvested the cartridge is irrelevant. As I stated earlier and with some frequency, we need to spend more time practicing our hunting and shooting skills with field experience rather just sighting in our rifle from the bench.
Best.0
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