Time to wake up and stop liscensing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1pSvEUAneE&NR=1Time to wake from your sleep.
Question : Does taking a license to own a firearm and to sell firearms constitute the giving up of constitutional rights?
Yes or No? Why?
There are a lot of ignorant citizens in America.
0
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quote:Originally posted by nunn
I have 4473 forms dating back to 1976. The BATFE has no access to them except on an audit, or if I surrender my license. Last time I was inspected, the BATFE lady looked at maybe a half dozen of the most recent ones, and my most recent bound book, and most of my guns.
I understand buying with no paper trail. I have bought guns that way, but I KNOW who I bought from, and have a record of the sale. My own record. No way would I buy from "some guy" out of the trunk of his car with no ID. It is just too easy to unknowingly buy a stolen gun, and I don't make enough money from gun sales to be able to afford very many stolen ones.
When a gun I sold to a customer turned out to have been stolen, it was easy for me to explain to the investigating officers where I got the gun. It was recorded in my bound book. Had it been a "personal" gun, it would have been recorded in my personal record book, and I would have had a bill of sale.
I hope it never happens to any of you, but if you are found to be in possession of a stolen gun, or stolen anything for that matter, I hope you are able to tell the police from whom you got it. To be asked where you got the stolen gun, and to only be able to answer, "From some guy at the flea market (or car wash, or wherever)" can be pretty uncomfortable, and can lead to a charge of receiving stolen property. Not for me, thanks.
BTW, cars are regulated by laws that many here consider un-Constitutional. Why not just buy a car on a handshake, then drive it with no registration, no inspection, and no driver's license? Why not? Because doing so can be expensive and inconvenient. Most of us try to obey the law, not necessarily because we agree with the law, but because doing so has nicer results than not doing so.
An FFL license is a contract and the government controls the licensee.
H.R. 45 is moving through the House and picking up steam. This multi-faceted bill will attack several things gun-owners hold dear. The bill introduces a registry of firearm purchases, imposes draconian penalties on gun sellers, a 2 day waiting period on all gun sales, a $25 tax on all gun purchases, bans all private gun sales, requires a written exam to prove your proficiency, requires the release of your medical/mental records and other barriers to buying and owning a firearm.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj4h9y_7SyU
Freedom is lost in small increments. And FFL dealers are taking part of this loss of freedom for the hollow sake of safety ,it's just a matter of time. JMO.0 -
HR 45 to my knowledge is the same as dead. Blair Holt is an ex-black gangbanger from Chicago who was once imprisoned for firearm violations. I think most people in congress know that Holt and the people who elected him are idiots and want nothing to do with him. In addition, Holt's proposed bill was written before the US Supreme Court ruled that gun ownership is actually an individual right. His bill has no co-sponsers which is a sign that the bill will not even be introduced for discussion or for voting.
Spend your time on dangers that are more real and urgent please. Just as if you were defending your family in your house from home invaders. Focus on the door or window those invaders are trying to come in. Don't spend a lot of time on the second story windows where there are no intruders yet.0 -
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
HR 45 to my knowledge is the same as dead. Blair Holt is an ex-black gangbanger from Chicago who was once imprisoned for firearm violations. I think most people in congress know that Holt and the people who elected him are idiots and want nothing to do with him. In addition, Holt's proposed bill was written before the US Supreme Court ruled that gun ownership is actually an individual right. His bill has no co-sponsers which is a sign that the bill will not even be introduced for discussion or for voting.
Spend your time on dangers that are more real and urgent please. Just as if you were defending your family in your house from home invaders. Focus on the door or window those invaders are trying to come in. Don't spend a lot of time on the second story windows where there are no intruders yet.
It's never dead, It never goes away they just change the numbers.
H.R. 45 is currently stalled, but expect the bill's provisions to appear in other forms.
from GOA
Democrats continue plugging for more gun control
News reports have disclosed that many gun stores in the Southwest had suspicions about buyers that were not flagged by the Instant Check. But these gun dealers were told to go ahead and let the sales take place.
So, what did Democrats do in the face of this damning evidence? They wanted to discuss the need for more gun restrictions.
Sen. Diane Feinstein (D-CA) said Congress needed to pass more gun control because, if one massages the numbers just right (and ignores a whole bunch of others), why, 70% of guns used in Mexican crime supposedly come from the U.S. At least that's what a brand new report from the ATF claims.
But Issa would have none of that, and he kept the committee focused on all the guns the ATF is helping send to Mexico.
ATF has a long history of death and destruction.
Waco was never adequately addressed at the time. Indeed, ATF got a bigger budget the next year. Innocent people such as David Olofson were convicted with perjured testimony. The Bureau has never published a manual detailing how they determine what is, or is not, a machine gun.
We have to thank the agents who had the courage and integrity to blow the whistle on the corruption being fostered by their superiors. But this is only the tip of the iceberg.
The Constitution allows no room for gun control, which is why this agency needs to be done away with and the managers of Fast and Furious (and those who signed off on it in the upper echelons of the Justice Department) need to go to jail.0 -
The number for HR45 has not been changed for well over 1 & 1/2 years. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
The number for HR45 has not been changed for well over 1 & 1/2 years.
Sorry, that is not what I meant. If HR 45 is sent to the waste basket another bill will follow in it's place. They (the liberals) never sleep on these issues.[:(].0 -
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
The number for HR45 has not been changed for well over 1 & 1/2 years.
Sorry, that is not what I meant. If HR 45 is sent to the waste basket another bill will follow in it's place. They (the liberals) never sleep on these issues.[:(].
OK, but what I meant was when you are raising the alarm about specific, potential new gun control laws, (which is great, but few do it) keep your information to actual close by threats. If you sound the alarm about potential new laws that are no threat too often, soon people will not pay much attention to you. Course, sadly, that is what most gun owners have been doing for decades. So you don't want to give then another reason to ignore the constant threats to gun and constitutional rights.0 -
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
The number for HR45 has not been changed for well over 1 & 1/2 years.
Sorry, that is not what I meant. If HR 45 is sent to the waste basket another bill will follow in it's place. They (the liberals) never sleep on these issues.[:(].
OK, but what I meant was when you are raising the alarm about specific, potential new gun control laws, (which is great, but few do it) keep your information to actual close by threats. If you sound the alarm about potential new laws that are no threat too often, soon people will not pay much attention to you. Course, sadly, that is what most gun owners have been doing for decades. So you don't want to give then another reason to ignore the constant threats to gun and constitutional rights.
Raising an alarm was not my intent. My intent was to bring issues to the foreground.
Just look at the GOA alert I posted on several sites as well as this site on a couple of links today, how many here actually went to the GOA site and sent the e-mail? 10-15 out of 200 or more,maybe.
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=531933
I got better response from my tea party group. Sad very sad . JMO.0 -
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
The number for HR45 has not been changed for well over 1 & 1/2 years.
Sorry, that is not what I meant. If HR 45 is sent to the waste basket another bill will follow in it's place. They (the liberals) never sleep on these issues.[:(].
OK, but what I meant was when you are raising the alarm about specific, potential new gun control laws, (which is great, but few do it) keep your information to actual close by threats. If you sound the alarm about potential new laws that are no threat too often, soon people will not pay much attention to you. Course, sadly, that is what most gun owners have been doing for decades. So you don't want to give then another reason to ignore the constant threats to gun and constitutional rights.
Raising an alarm was not my intent. My intent was to bring issues to the foreground.
Just look at the GOA alert I posted on several sites as well as this site on a couple of links today, how many here actually went to the GOA site and sent the e-mail? 10-15 out of 200 or more,maybe.
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=531933
I got better response from my tea party group. Sad very sad . JMO.
Yes it is sad. But I was one who responded to your email request. There are an estimated 84 million gun owners in America. If even one-half of those gun owners would find someway to link up, work together and focus their energy and political power, the 42 million strong group could run America anyway we wanted to. Heck, even the extremists might finally get their way if they first joined up with a group to focus our power. Once we took that power, then the extremist could start lobbying to do things their way. If enough of the 42 million member group I have described agreed with their way, then without a doubt that is what would happen.
But instead we have lazy gun owners who do absolutely nothing to help with the gun rights fight. And, worse, some of them not only don't do anything constructive, but instead waste their time and energy arguing and criticizing those gun owners who are at least doing something. Heck, some of the gun rights extremists kinda like the idea behind the Tea Party, but that is nothing more than a group of Americans joining together and focusing their political power. And I guarantee you the many of those Tea Party members do not all have the same, exact idea of what the Tea Party is all about or what or where it should go. But they still know they must find someway to work together or be steamrollered by their opponents.
I wish gun owners could do the same but I long ago gave up hope. I frankly am not sure who is actually doing the heavy lifting in the gun rights fight. It sure is not the majority of gun owners, I know that for sure.0 -
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
The number for HR45 has not been changed for well over 1 & 1/2 years.
Sorry, that is not what I meant. If HR 45 is sent to the waste basket another bill will follow in it's place. They (the liberals) never sleep on these issues.[:(].
OK, but what I meant was when you are raising the alarm about specific, potential new gun control laws, (which is great, but few do it) keep your information to actual close by threats. If you sound the alarm about potential new laws that are no threat too often, soon people will not pay much attention to you. Course, sadly, that is what most gun owners have been doing for decades. So you don't want to give then another reason to ignore the constant threats to gun and constitutional rights.
Raising an alarm was not my intent. My intent was to bring issues to the foreground.
Just look at the GOA alert I posted on several sites as well as this site on a couple of links today, how many here actually went to the GOA site and sent the e-mail? 10-15 out of 200 or more,maybe.
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=531933
I got better response from my tea party group. Sad very sad . JMO.
Yes it is sad. But I was one who responded to your email request. There are an estimated 84 million gun owners in America. If even one-half of those gun owners would find someway to link up, work together and focus their energy and political power, the 42 million strong group could run America anyway we wanted to. Heck, even the extremists might finally get their way if they first joined up with a group to focus our power. Once we took that power, then the extremist could start lobbying to do things their way. If enough of the 42 million member group I have described agreed with their way, then without a doubt that is what would happen.
But instead we have lazy gun owners who do absolutely nothing to help with the gun rights fight. And, worse, some of them not only don't do anything constructive, but instead waste their time and energy arguing and criticizing those gun owners who are at least doing something. Heck, some of the gun rights extremists kinda like the idea behind the Tea Party, but that is nothing more than a group of Americans joining together and focusing their political power. And I guarantee you the many of those Tea Party members do not all have the same, exact idea of what the Tea Party is all about or what or where it should go. But they still know they must find someway to work together or be steamrollered by their opponents.
I wish gun owners could do the same but I long ago gave up hope. I frankly am not sure who is actually doing the heavy lifting in the gun rights fight. It sure is not the majority of gun owners, I know that for sure.
Thank you for a well stated response,many gun owners are fair weather friends,when asked to act, they cower within their selves afraid of the long arm of government. Let someone else be the scape goat. What they fail to understand is this, when rights are slowly lost to the point of no return it will be too late.
It reminds me of the frog thrown into the hot water he jumped right out. But if placed in a pan of cool water the fire government control)could be turned up slowly and he will sit there and cook unto his death.
I also wonder how effective the gun lobbies are, many of them have become big business and do not always have the gun owners best interest at heart. I was a member of the NRA for years but became very disappointed with their ongoing compromise of our common law rights. I am currently a dues paying member of GOA and SAF, I like SAF
they are active and file the law suits that are making change, GOA does as well to some extent.
Americans have forgotten their heritage, their sovereignty, their ability to control government through the use of the jury box.
I remember years ago, going to classes where Red Beckman taught jury common law and sovereignty i.e. my handle on this site.
I have not given up.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbNIU2KEz4g&feature=player_embedded0 -
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
The number for HR45 has not been changed for well over 1 & 1/2 years.
Sorry, that is not what I meant. If HR 45 is sent to the waste basket another bill will follow in it's place. They (the liberals) never sleep on these issues.[:(].
OK, but what I meant was when you are raising the alarm about specific, potential new gun control laws, (which is great, but few do it) keep your information to actual close by threats. If you sound the alarm about potential new laws that are no threat too often, soon people will not pay much attention to you. Course, sadly, that is what most gun owners have been doing for decades. So you don't want to give then another reason to ignore the constant threats to gun and constitutional rights.
Raising an alarm was not my intent. My intent was to bring issues to the foreground.
Just look at the GOA alert I posted on several sites as well as this site on a couple of links today, how many here actually went to the GOA site and sent the e-mail? 10-15 out of 200 or more,maybe.
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=531933
I got better response from my tea party group. Sad very sad . JMO.
Yes it is sad. But I was one who responded to your email request. There are an estimated 84 million gun owners in America. If even one-half of those gun owners would find someway to link up, work together and focus their energy and political power, the 42 million strong group could run America anyway we wanted to. Heck, even the extremists might finally get their way if they first joined up with a group to focus our power. Once we took that power, then the extremist could start lobbying to do things their way. If enough of the 42 million member group I have described agreed with their way, then without a doubt that is what would happen.
But instead we have lazy gun owners who do absolutely nothing to help with the gun rights fight. And, worse, some of them not only don't do anything constructive, but instead waste their time and energy arguing and criticizing those gun owners who are at least doing something. Heck, some of the gun rights extremists kinda like the idea behind the Tea Party, but that is nothing more than a group of Americans joining together and focusing their political power. And I guarantee you the many of those Tea Party members do not all have the same, exact idea of what the Tea Party is all about or what or where it should go. But they still know they must find someway to work together or be steamrollered by their opponents.
I wish gun owners could do the same but I long ago gave up hope. I frankly am not sure who is actually doing the heavy lifting in the gun rights fight. It sure is not the majority of gun owners, I know that for sure.
Thank you for a well stated response,many gun owners are fair weather friends,when asked to act, they cower within their selves afraid of the long arm of government. Let someone else be the scape goat. What they fail to understand is this, when rights are slowly lost to the point of no return it will be too late.
It reminds me of the frog thrown into the hot water he jumped right out. But if placed in a pan of cool water the fire government control)could be turned up slowly and he will sit there and cook unto his death.
I also wonder how effective the gun lobbies are, many of them have become big business and do not always have the gun owners best interest at heart. I was a member of the NRA for years but became very disappointed with their ongoing compromise of our common law rights. I am currently a dues paying member of GOA and SAF, I like SAF
they are active and file the law suits that are making change, GOA does as well to some extent.
Americans have forgotten their heritage, their sovereignty, their ability to control government through the use of the jury box.
I remember years ago, going to classes where Red Beckman taught jury common law and sovereignty i.e. my handle on this site.
I have not given up.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbNIU2KEz4g&feature=player_embedded
In red above. I and many other people who believe in constitutional rights have enough life experience to know that if you can't achieve victory in one swell swoop, then the only good alternative is to obtain victory in increments. It worked well for the North Vietnamese against the French and then against the USA.
Here is a GB.com link to an article that clearly demonstrates this:
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=532066
I agree the NRA is not perfect, but it is the biggest kid on the block. I am also a dues paying member of SAF and GOA. But I can only hope they in time will get as big and powerful as the NRA. Because in the meantime the are little and weak and never seem to go anywhere near the million mark in having members. Many here would laugh at us for being members. They think it is foolish for us to rely on organizations or to "pay" someone to fight for our constitutional rights. I know that part of the fight involves the political side. I also know that the politicians never care much about what a couple of citizens say or think. But when those citizens all speak with one voice as 4 million members, not only the politicians but the news media pays attention. In the meantime I, and others, do what we can as indivuduals.
Many of the extremists here must either be new to being alive in the world or new to the idea of constitutional rights and progress towards getting those rights back. Up until about the 1960, because of lack of effective conservative opposition, the liberals just about owned America. This was especially true in regards to the liberals whittling away at our gun rights. But starting about in the 1970's pro-constitutional and pro-gun rights people and organizations finally realized we had lost way too many rights and started fighting back. And we have come a long way. There didn't even used to even be any organized, strong and effective conservative or pro-gun orginzations and now there are several. Plus, until the early 1990's if you asked for a license to carry a concealed firearm (yeah, yeah, I know a license should not be required but I am talking and living in the real world as it was and is) you probably would have been physically thrown out of the sheriff's office or the police station. Now all states except Ill have some form of concealed carry and it can only get better from here.
I myself, having seen it all happen, call that progress. Course that will never, ever make the extremists here happy.0 -
quote:We agreed to the sale and we shook hands, as I always do on such firearms deals. He got into his vehicle and left and I did the same.
Exactly how it should be done.0 -
Hey, Mr. Sovereign Citizen:
How come you challenge me to answer your questions until I do, and then you ignore mine?
quote:So, would you have me give up my FFL?
Of course, you know that if I do, I have to send ALL my bound books and 4473 forms to the BATF, where someone will be entering all that information into a database.
I don't make a lot of money with my license, but I do make some. Are you willing to send me a monthly check to replace my lost income?
Would you have me continue to buy and sell guns without a license, and put myself at risk of federal prosecution?
If I were licensed as a pharmacist, car dealer, plumber or electrician, you wouldn't have such a weed up your backside about it, but because I deal in guns, you have a problem.
I live in the world as it is, not as I wish it to be. Buying and selling guns for profit requires a license, so I have a license. I obey the law. I am also a peace officer and I enforce the law.
If you, through legal political activism, are able to get all the gun control laws repealed, so that no one needs a license to buy and sell, then I won't have one, and I will land on my feet and adapt. In any case, I will not do anything illegal.0 -
quote:Originally posted by nunn
Hey, Mr. Sovereign Citizen:
How come you challenge me to answer your questions until I do, and then you ignore mine?
quote:So, would you have me give up my FFL?
Of course, you know that if I do, I have to send ALL my bound books and 4473 forms to the BATF, where someone will be entering all that information into a database.
I don't make a lot of money with my license, but I do make some. Are you willing to send me a monthly check to replace my lost income?
Would you have me continue to buy and sell guns without a license, and put myself at risk of federal prosecution?
If I were licensed as a pharmacist, car dealer, plumber or electrician, you wouldn't have such a weed up your backside about it, but because I deal in guns, you have a problem.
I live in the world as it is, not as I wish it to be. Buying and selling guns for profit requires a license, so I have a license. I obey the law. I am also a peace officer and I enforce the law.
If you, through legal political activism, are able to get all the gun control laws repealed, so that no one needs a license to buy and sell, then I won't have one, and I will land on my feet and adapt. In any case, I will not do anything illegal.
You should never have accepted "privilege for financial gain", with privilege comes control over your reason and life.You become a citizen subject to the king.
Of course, you know that if I do, I have to send ALL my bound books and 4473 forms to the BATF, where someone will be entering all that information into a database.
--
My point is well made you allowed yourself to become an agent of a unconstitutional law. You are part of the problem in America ,not the fix. Your own words make my point.0 -
What is almost LOL funny is that if the radicals here would live what they post, they would not be posting because they would have all gotten arrested by now. 0 -
(quote)
What is almost LOL funny is that if the radicals here would live what they post, they would not be posting because they would have all gotten arrested by now.
[/quote]Compromise is the same today,yesterday,and at the time of the revolutionary war.Compromise with ulterior motives and double-speak. Compromise that hurts our country, indeed our world.Just look at the tangle of laws that bind the citizen to the point of incapacity.
From what I have read on this forum, at least to some here they do not compromise it is counter-intuitive and in stark contrast to the common wisdom put forth by our founding fathers, the truth is, moderation & compromise have a dark and sordid past when it comes to governing nations.There are times that compromise is folly.
We all have to decide where to draw a line, but all to often with arm chair or fair weather patriots the line is redrawn backward as they move away from freedom.
I'll take my leave for a time, we (radicals) have a couple trips planned to draw a line, to take a pro gun stance.
Compromise must be measured against the good and evil.
action speaks louder than words.
http://gunowners.org/alertscat.htm0 -
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
(quote)
What is almost LOL funny is that if the radicals here would live what they post, they would not be posting because they would have all gotten arrested by now.
Compromise is the same today,yesterday,and at the time of the revolutionary war.Compromise with ulterior motives and double-speak. Compromise that hurts our country, indeed our world.Just look at the tangle of laws that bind the citizen to the point of incapacity.
From what I have read on this forum, at least to some here they do not compromise it is counter-intuitive and in stark contrast to the common wisdom put forth by our founding fathers, the truth is, moderation & compromise have a dark and sordid past when it comes to governing nations.There are times that compromise is folly.
We all have to decide where to draw a line, but all to often with arm chair or fair weather patriots the line is redrawn backward as they move away from freedom.
I'll take my leave for a time, we (radicals) have a couple trips planned to draw a line, to take a pro gun stance.
Compromise must be measured against the good and evil.
action speaks louder than words.
http://gunowners.org/alertscat.htm
[/quote]
You realize of course that you are lumping yourself in with the radical, extremists who do nothing but post complaints, criticisms, hate and anger? And while you have a more reasonable version of their attitudes, you also appear to be out in the real world tryiing to do some good. As compared to them just doing nothing but blowing hot air out of their pie hole.
In short, if everthing is correct regarding my observations, then you are too good to for them.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Wyatt Earp
quote:We agreed to the sale and we shook hands, as I always do on such firearms deals. He got into his vehicle and left and I did the same.
Exactly how it should be done.
Absolutely perfect way to sell guns. Well, until the unknown fellow you sold the gun to turns out to have been an illegal alien, with a violent criminal record. Then he goes and robs the 7-11 you always get coffee at and kills the clerk who always brews you that coffee. Then somehow the gun is traced back to you and the question is asked "why did you sell a gun to an illegal alien?"
I donno. Maybe it is just me, but I had been that seller and the law was knocking on my door I believe, I would start saying goodby to my family. Course others here would just chase the law away from their door by either waving a copy of the US Constitution in their face. Or start arguing the finer points of the 2A. Or maybe haul out some of your firepower and use that to scare them away.
I guess there are ways to avoid going to prison.0 -
quote:You should never have accepted "privilege for financial gain",
You know about "shoulda, woulda, and coulda," don't you? Take all three in one hand, then poo in the other hand, and see which fills up faster.
Wife and I have applied to adopt children who are in state custody. Our application is on hold now until she recovers from her surgery, but we are still in line. We have had to jump through a lot of hoops that seemed absolutely ridiculous under the circumstances. The circumstances being that the state has more kids to place than there are adoptive homes. You might think that the state would be a little more interested in moving kids into permanent homes, but they have their rules, and we must comply if we want to participate. It "should" be different, but it isn't.
I buy and sell guns for profit. I handle transfers for Gunbroker buyers in my area. It is something I enjoy doing. The law says I need a license to do so, so I have one.
If I were to buy and sell cars for profit, I would need a license, and I would have one.
If I want to work on plumbing for others for pay, I need a license.
If I want to listen to people's problems and help them seek a solution for pay, I need a license.
Lots of occupations require licensing. Most licenses are granted at the state level, but the license to sell firearms is a federal license. Is that the problem? Would you have less of a problem if my license were granted by the state, but still required the same background checks and record keeping?
If NFA, GCA68, and the BATFE did not exist, (I wish) but the individual states all had similar controls in place, would that violate 2A? Or would it be allowed under 10A?
I have seen folk at the gun shows who stay away from the FFL tables, seeking out a FTF transaction. I have seen posts on here stating that convicted felons should be able to buy and possess firearms. I reckon everyone has an agenda, and a reason for doing/believing as they do, and a felony conviction is a tough thing to live with.
So, I take it that since I have a FFL, I don't have to worry about anyone like you trying to buy one of my guns? Well, that's OK with me.0 -
Sadly. I understand what Nunn is saying. For a "free" Society, we sure have to have permission for a lot of things. Doesn't sound very free. In pretty much all instances, a license is nothing more than a revenue tool for whatever what every Government department you hand the money to. Some is in the believe that it helps protect us from dishonest business practices. Which it really doesn't. No more than a Drivers License defends against bad drivers. With one noted excetption, there is NO constitutional protection against these requirements. Now. Where FFL's are concerned, it can go either way. On one hand it's a business. On the other, it's a constitutionally garrenteed right to keep and bear arms. In order to that, most of us have to go buy them from someone. The FFL is as most government license's a permission slip to do business. Unfortunately, it is also a permission slip for the government to come into your business and rifle through your papers any damn time they want. You are theirs for the taking. But unless you have your own machine shop and enough skill to make your own guns, then we are stuck with what we have.
As I mentioned in another post on a different topic, we are not near as "Free" as we like to think we are. But it is a nice delusion if nothing else.0 -
quote:Originally posted by 45long
Sadly. I understand what Nunn is saying. For a "free" Society, we sure have to have permission for a lot of things. Doesn't sound very free. In pretty much all instances, a license is nothing more than a revenue tool for whatever what every Government department you hand the money to. Some is in the believe that it helps protect us from dishonest business practices. Which it really doesn't. No more than a Drivers License defends against bad drivers. With one noted excetption, there is NO constitutional protection against these requirements. Now. Where FFL's are concerned, it can go either way. On one hand it's a business. On the other, it's a constitutionally garrenteed right to keep and bear arms. In order to that, most of us have to go buy them from someone. The FFL is as most government license's a permission slip to do business. Unfortunately, it is also a permission slip for the government to come into your business and rifle through your papers any damn time they want. You are theirs for the taking. But unless you have your own machine shop and enough skill to make your own guns, then we are stuck with what we have.
As I mentioned in another post on a different topic, we are not near as "Free" as we like to think we are. But it is a nice delusion if nothing else.
In my own small way I work for exposing the difference between true Freedom and "the illusion of Freedom." "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."
Freedom starts with the principle of self-control. For example, in this society, people have the legal right guaranteed to self defense of oneself and those around him or her, this legal right to defend is a God given right that cannot be abrogated by Government.
Looking at the history of nations, the more fascist they become the more draconian laws are applied to restrict natural rights. When Hitler came to power he got 98% of the German vote, imagine that 98%.
The people loved him as they love Obama today.
Slowly Hitler started a process of curtailing human rights, and we all know where that ended up. Jews that did not resist in the beginning and slowly a downward spiral ended in mass deaths.They went along with the slow removal of human rights and soon discovered it had become to late.
In America we too are walking down the path to a complete loss of freedom only much much slower, they don't want us to jump out of the hot water so they turn it up ever so slowly. The patriot act, executive orders in the thousands without Congress's approval, etc.
Where am I going with this?
Any License that curtails freedom needlessly including an FFL dealer taking license is only a very small part of the whole problem facing America,keeping records is just the first step, but it is just as bad as the Jewish family in 1938 that saw nothing wrong and was proud to wear the star of David to be identified.
We all have a line in the sand that we do not want government to cross. I find the more Constitutionally educated a person becomes the tighter they hold the line. The more government license and privilege they have the line becomes more and more blurred.0 -
quote:You know about "shoulda, woulda, and coulda," don't you? Take all three in one hand, then poo in the other hand, and see which fills up faster.
Wife and I have applied to adopt children who are in state custody. Our application is on hold now until she recovers from her surgery, but we are still in line. We have had to jump through a lot of hoops that seemed absolutely ridiculous under the circumstances. The circumstances being that the state has more kids to place than there are adoptive homes. You might think that the state would be a little more interested in moving kids into permanent homes, but they have their rules, and we must comply if we want to participate. It "should" be different, but it isn't.
I buy and sell guns for profit. I handle transfers for Gunbroker buyers in my area. It is something I enjoy doing. The law says I need a license to do so, so I have one.
If I were to buy and sell cars for profit, I would need a license, and I would have one.
If I want to work on plumbing for others for pay, I need a license.
If I want to listen to people's problems and help them seek a solution for pay, I need a license.
Lots of occupations require licensing. Most licenses are granted at the state level, but the license to sell firearms is a federal license. Is that the problem? Would you have less of a problem if my license were granted by the state, but still required the same background checks and record keeping?
If NFA, GCA68, and the BATFE did not exist, (I wish) but the individual states all had similar controls in place, would that violate 2A? Or would it be allowed under 10A?
I have seen folk at the gun shows who stay away from the FFL tables, seeking out a FTF transaction. I have seen posts on here stating that convicted felons should be able to buy and possess firearms. I reckon everyone has an agenda, and a reason for doing/believing as they do, and a felony conviction is a tough thing to live with.
So, I take it that since I have a FFL, I don't have to worry about anyone like you trying to buy one of my guns? Well, that's OK with me.
So, what would you have me to do at this point? Right now, all my 4473s and bound books are in my possession. They will remain in my possession as long as I am licensed. If for any reason, I am no longer licensed, those records have to be sent to the BATFE, where the information therein will probably be recorded in a computer database.
My intention is to remain licensed for as long as I live. After I am gone, if my wife, who is totally ignorant of the law, and is not responsible for compliance, sends the stuff in, OK. But, she probably won't know to do it, and therefore won't do it. By the time the feds realize that I didn't renew my license and didn't send in my records, and come to visit, she will likely have otherwise disposed of them.
So, what would you have me to do, in your perfect world?0 -
quote:Originally posted by nunn
quote:You know about "shoulda, woulda, and coulda," don't you? Take all three in one hand, then poo in the other hand, and see which fills up faster.
Wife and I have applied to adopt children who are in state custody. Our application is on hold now until she recovers from her surgery, but we are still in line. We have had to jump through a lot of hoops that seemed absolutely ridiculous under the circumstances. The circumstances being that the state has more kids to place than there are adoptive homes. You might think that the state would be a little more interested in moving kids into permanent homes, but they have their rules, and we must comply if we want to participate. It "should" be different, but it isn't.
I buy and sell guns for profit. I handle transfers for Gunbroker buyers in my area. It is something I enjoy doing. The law says I need a license to do so, so I have one.
If I were to buy and sell cars for profit, I would need a license, and I would have one.
If I want to work on plumbing for others for pay, I need a license.
If I want to listen to people's problems and help them seek a solution for pay, I need a license.
Lots of occupations require licensing. Most licenses are granted at the state level, but the license to sell firearms is a federal license. Is that the problem? Would you have less of a problem if my license were granted by the state, but still required the same background checks and record keeping?
If NFA, GCA68, and the BATFE did not exist, (I wish) but the individual states all had similar controls in place, would that violate 2A? Or would it be allowed under 10A?
I have seen folk at the gun shows who stay away from the FFL tables, seeking out a FTF transaction. I have seen posts on here stating that convicted felons should be able to buy and possess firearms. I reckon everyone has an agenda, and a reason for doing/believing as they do, and a felony conviction is a tough thing to live with.
So, I take it that since I have a FFL, I don't have to worry about anyone like you trying to buy one of my guns? Well, that's OK with me.
So, what would you have me to do at this point? Right now, all my 4473s and bound books are in my possession. They will remain in my possession as long as I am licensed. If for any reason, I am no longer licensed, those records have to be sent to the BATFE, where the information therein will probably be recorded in a computer database.
My intention is to remain licensed for as long as I live. After I am gone, if my wife, who is totally ignorant of the law, and is not responsible for compliance, sends the stuff in, OK. But, she probably won't know to do it, and therefore won't do it. By the time the feds realize that I didn't renew my license and didn't send in my records, and come to visit, she will likely have otherwise disposed of them.
So, what would you have me to do, in your perfect world?
It's to late you have taken license and there is no recourse, your records will eventually become information in the government information system.. We are a stones throw from registration. The government is a raging beast with hidden fangs waiting to inject it's poison into every American one citizen at a time.
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." --Samuel Adams
"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence. To secure peace, securely and happiness, the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that is good." --George Washington0 -
You no read so good. Unless forced to give it up, I will keep my license as long as I live. My wife does not participate in my business and has no idea what to do. She would probably look at those boxes of paperwork and figure they are trash, and burn them or throw them away.
So, the BATFE will send poor ol' dead Dave a renewal notice, and it will also be thrown out. After a time, the BATFE will wonder why I gave up my license and didn't send in my records as required. They may eventually send someone out, and with any luck, they will find four bare walls.
"Ma'am, you were supposed to..."
"Nope. Maybe he was supposed to do something, but I had no license, and I knew nothing about this business. Get off my place and have a nice day."
So, if it is indeed "to (sic) late," WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE ME DO? That makes at least three times I have asked.
Are you the sort of feller who would rather curse the darkness, or light a candle?0 -
quote:Originally posted by nunn
You no read so good. Unless forced to give it up, I will keep my license as long as I live. My wife does not participate in my business and has no idea what to do. She would probably look at those boxes of paperwork and figure they are trash, and burn them or throw them away.
So, the BATFE will send poor ol' dead Dave a renewal notice, and it will also be thrown out. After a time, the BATFE will wonder why I gave up my license and didn't send in my records as required. They may eventually send someone out, and with any luck, they will find four bare walls.
"Ma'am, you were supposed to..."
"Nope. Maybe he was supposed to do something, but I had no license, and I knew nothing about this business. Get off my place and have a nice day."
So, if it is indeed "to (sic) late," WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE ME DO? That makes at least three times I have asked.
Are you the sort of feller who would rather curse the darkness, or light a candle?
No David, he is the sort of fellow who tilts at windmills, yet does not have the least clue where the windmills exist.
Just another charter member of the Flat Earth Society.
His type distort words and terms and pull concepts out of context in order to advance an agenda, while contending "they" are the one true interpreters of the Constitution.
I'd suggest they check Jefferson's work a bit more closely before they claim all other's are ignorant and uneducated.0 -
quote:Originally posted by nunn
You no read so good. Unless forced to give it up, I will keep my license as long as I live. My wife does not participate in my business and has no idea what to do. She would probably look at those boxes of paperwork and figure they are trash, and burn them or throw them away.
So, the BATFE will send poor ol' dead Dave a renewal notice, and it will also be thrown out. After a time, the BATFE will wonder why I gave up my license and didn't send in my records as required. They may eventually send someone out, and with any luck, they will find four bare walls.
"Ma'am, you were supposed to..."
"Nope. Maybe he was supposed to do something, but I had no license, and I knew nothing about this business. Get off my place and have a nice day."
So, if it is indeed "to (sic) late," WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE ME DO? That makes at least three times I have asked.
Are you the sort of feller who would rather curse the darkness, or light a candle?
I only hope your right Nunn. And I hope that the call in checks aren't entered into a data base, and your wife remembers to throw them away (burn them)before the BATF and FBI get their clutches on them. Many do not understand that unhindered government destroys rights, and with the make up of our Congress moving to the left ever so slowly. ................. have a good night. I believe limited government is a good government, some on this site do not.0 -
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by nunn
You no read so good. Unless forced to give it up, I will keep my license as long as I live. My wife does not participate in my business and has no idea what to do. She would probably look at those boxes of paperwork and figure they are trash, and burn them or throw them away.
So, the BATFE will send poor ol' dead Dave a renewal notice, and it will also be thrown out. After a time, the BATFE will wonder why I gave up my license and didn't send in my records as required. They may eventually send someone out, and with any luck, they will find four bare walls.
"Ma'am, you were supposed to..."
"Nope. Maybe he was supposed to do something, but I had no license, and I knew nothing about this business. Get off my place and have a nice day."
So, if it is indeed "to (sic) late," WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE ME DO? That makes at least three times I have asked.
Are you the sort of feller who would rather curse the darkness, or light a candle?
I only hope your right Nunn. And I hope that the call in checks aren't entered into a data base, and your wife remembers to throw them away (burn them)before the BATF and FBI get their clutches on them. Many do not understand that unhindered government destroys rights, and with the make up of our Congress moving to the left ever so slowly. ................. have a good night. I believe limited government is a good government, some on this site do not.
That's it, that's all you've got?
Pathetic.0 -
quote:Originally posted by dlrjj
quote:Originally posted by nunn
You no read so good. Unless forced to give it up, I will keep my license as long as I live. My wife does not participate in my business and has no idea what to do. She would probably look at those boxes of paperwork and figure they are trash, and burn them or throw them away.
So, the BATFE will send poor ol' dead Dave a renewal notice, and it will also be thrown out. After a time, the BATFE will wonder why I gave up my license and didn't send in my records as required. They may eventually send someone out, and with any luck, they will find four bare walls.
"Ma'am, you were supposed to..."
"Nope. Maybe he was supposed to do something, but I had no license, and I knew nothing about this business. Get off my place and have a nice day."
So, if it is indeed "to (sic) late," WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE ME DO? That makes at least three times I have asked.
Are you the sort of feller who would rather curse the darkness, or light a candle?
No David, he is the sort of fellow who tilts at windmills, yet does not have the least clue where the windmills exist.
Just another charter member of the Flat Earth Society.
His type distort words and terms and pull concepts out of context in order to advance an agenda, while contending "they" are the one true interpreters of the Constitution.
I'd suggest they check Jefferson's work a bit more closely before they claim all other's are ignorant and uneducated.
Did you ever hear of the statement that ignorance is bliss, he was right. Just look at Obamas election and wonder how low America has fallen. As Far as Jefferson I have read his writings, and hamiltons, and madisons, and quite a few others have you?
Which arm of government do you work for?ome thoughts for you to ponder.
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
--Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria in On Crimes and Punishment (1764).
"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
--Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824.
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives a moderate exercise to the Body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind . . . Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks."
--Thomas Jefferson, Letter to his nephew Peter Carr, August 19, 1785.
"No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms (within his own lands or tenements)."
--Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution with (his note added), 1776. Papers, 1:353
You were saying?0 -
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by dlrjj
quote:Originally posted by nunn
You no read so good. Unless forced to give it up, I will keep my license as long as I live. My wife does not participate in my business and has no idea what to do. She would probably look at those boxes of paperwork and figure they are trash, and burn them or throw them away.
So, the BATFE will send poor ol' dead Dave a renewal notice, and it will also be thrown out. After a time, the BATFE will wonder why I gave up my license and didn't send in my records as required. They may eventually send someone out, and with any luck, they will find four bare walls.
"Ma'am, you were supposed to..."
"Nope. Maybe he was supposed to do something, but I had no license, and I knew nothing about this business. Get off my place and have a nice day."
So, if it is indeed "to (sic) late," WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE ME DO? That makes at least three times I have asked.
Are you the sort of feller who would rather curse the darkness, or light a candle?
No David, he is the sort of fellow who tilts at windmills, yet does not have the least clue where the windmills exist.
Just another charter member of the Flat Earth Society.
His type distort words and terms and pull concepts out of context in order to advance an agenda, while contending "they" are the one true interpreters of the Constitution.
I'd suggest they check Jefferson's work a bit more closely before they claim all other's are ignorant and uneducated.
Did you ever hear of the statement that ignorance is bliss, he was right. Just look at Obamas election and wonder how low America has fallen. As Far as Jefferson I have read his writings, and hamiltons, and madisons, and quite a few others have you?
Which arm of government do you work for?ome thoughts for you to ponder.
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
--Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria in On Crimes and Punishment (1764).
"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
--Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824.
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives a moderate exercise to the Body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind . . . Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks."
--Thomas Jefferson, Letter to his nephew Peter Carr, August 19, 1785.
"No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms (within his own lands or tenements)."
--Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution with (his note added), 1776. Papers, 1:353
You were saying?
Do you ever post anything other than trash?0 -
quote:Originally posted by dlrjj
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by dlrjj
quote:Originally posted by nunn
You no read so good. Unless forced to give it up, I will keep my license as long as I live. My wife does not participate in my business and has no idea what to do. She would probably look at those boxes of paperwork and figure they are trash, and burn them or throw them away.
So, the BATFE will send poor ol' dead Dave a renewal notice, and it will also be thrown out. After a time, the BATFE will wonder why I gave up my license and didn't send in my records as required. They may eventually send someone out, and with any luck, they will find four bare walls.
"Ma'am, you were supposed to..."
"Nope. Maybe he was supposed to do something, but I had no license, and I knew nothing about this business. Get off my place and have a nice day."
So, if it is indeed "to (sic) late," WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE ME DO? That makes at least three times I have asked.
Are you the sort of feller who would rather curse the darkness, or light a candle?
No David, he is the sort of fellow who tilts at windmills, yet does not have the least clue where the windmills exist.
Just another charter member of the Flat Earth Society.
His type distort words and terms and pull concepts out of context in order to advance an agenda, while contending "they" are the one true interpreters of the Constitution.
I'd suggest they check Jefferson's work a bit more closely before they claim all other's are ignorant and uneducated.
Did you ever hear of the statement that ignorance is bliss, he was right. Just look at Obamas election and wonder how low America has fallen. As Far as Jefferson I have read his writings, and hamiltons, and madisons, and quite a few others have you?
Which arm of government do you work for?ome thoughts for you to ponder.
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
--Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria in On Crimes and Punishment (1764).
"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
--Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824.
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives a moderate exercise to the Body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind . . . Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks."
--Thomas Jefferson, Letter to his nephew Peter Carr, August 19, 1785.
"No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms (within his own lands or tenements)."
--Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution with (his note added), 1776. Papers, 1:353
You were saying?
Do you ever post anything other than trash?
So you are a government worker?
Jefferson is NOT TRASH ,FOOL!0 -
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by dlrjj
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by dlrjj
quote:Originally posted by nunn
You no read so good. Unless forced to give it up, I will keep my license as long as I live. My wife does not participate in my business and has no idea what to do. She would probably look at those boxes of paperwork and figure they are trash, and burn them or throw them away.
So, the BATFE will send poor ol' dead Dave a renewal notice, and it will also be thrown out. After a time, the BATFE will wonder why I gave up my license and didn't send in my records as required. They may eventually send someone out, and with any luck, they will find four bare walls.
"Ma'am, you were supposed to..."
"Nope. Maybe he was supposed to do something, but I had no license, and I knew nothing about this business. Get off my place and have a nice day."
So, if it is indeed "to (sic) late," WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE ME DO? That makes at least three times I have asked.
Are you the sort of feller who would rather curse the darkness, or light a candle?
No David, he is the sort of fellow who tilts at windmills, yet does not have the least clue where the windmills exist.
Just another charter member of the Flat Earth Society.
His type distort words and terms and pull concepts out of context in order to advance an agenda, while contending "they" are the one true interpreters of the Constitution.
I'd suggest they check Jefferson's work a bit more closely before they claim all other's are ignorant and uneducated.
Did you ever hear of the statement that ignorance is bliss, he was right. Just look at Obamas election and wonder how low America has fallen. As Far as Jefferson I have read his writings, and hamiltons, and madisons, and quite a few others have you?
Which arm of government do you work for?ome thoughts for you to ponder.
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
--Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria in On Crimes and Punishment (1764).
"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
--Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824.
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives a moderate exercise to the Body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind . . . Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks."
--Thomas Jefferson, Letter to his nephew Peter Carr, August 19, 1785.
"No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms (within his own lands or tenements)."
--Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution with (his note added), 1776. Papers, 1:353
You were saying?
Do you ever post anything other than trash?
So you are a government worker?
Jefferson is NOT TRASH ,FOOL!
Good God you are ignorant!0
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