Need help dating DWM Luger commercial..PICS ADDED

MrM1A1

July 22, 2011 07:12

I've got a nice 4" commercial 9mm Para DWM Luger with Crown over N proofs, serial number 3453s, and all matching numbers(I'm sure his time[:I]). There is no chamber date. I'm thinking it's a 1920, but haven't found any data on any "s" suffix guns. Any ideas?

EDIT #1: Alright, here are some pics of the Luger in question. I also included a couple pics of the mag. It has an unmarked WOOD base with a kind of light checkered pattern on the very bottom. Is this unusual? I've never seen a wood bottom mag before, although I am just starting to pay attention to the finer details of Lugers, so they might be common for all I know.

I suspect it to be a 1920 Commercial, but am just not too sure of myself yet. Thank you again fellas, your knowledge is very helpful!!

EDIT #2: rufe-snow, since the pistol was rebarreled in the '60's, is it safe to say the gun was reblued at this time? Thanks again for your insight![;)]
[IMG]EDIT #3: rufe-snow, I am very pleased to hear this news. The finish looks all original, and although it's not in the best of condition, it still has quite a bit of finish left and shows honest and consistent wear patterns. I did a bit of history reading on the Reichsheer and find it facinating. I will be doing more research on this for sure. Also, is the wood bottomed magazine correct for this time period/configuration?? Also pt. 2, any speculation as to an approx. value in your opinion?? Thank you again, I am VERY excited about finding more info on my DWM.[;)] EDIT #4: Thank you again for all the info rufe-snow and perry shooter!! EDIT #5: Thank you for the referral rufe-snow, I posted a similar thread on the afore suggested site and am waiting for some feedback. There's a wealth of info over there. Thank You again!![:D][/img]

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  perry shooter

  July 22, 2011 07:28

  Most LUGERS have a date stamped on the barrel receiver ring just in front of the toggle Assm. Also for the most part serial numbers do not date the pistol as they go up to 9999 and then start over again with a different letter under the 4 digits. Some lugers have less then 3 numbers but for every 9999 made 9000 have 4 digits. Pictures need to be detailed up close with Macro lens setting.

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  rufe-snow

  July 22, 2011 07:38

  A Luger with a lower case letter modifier/suffix on the frame was originally made for the German military forces. This would indicate it's the variation known to collectors as a 1920 Commercial.
  
  The authentic commercial Lugers made by DWM both prior to and after the First World War, have a 5 digit serial number on the frame with out a lower case letter suffix/moderator.

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  rufe-snow

  July 22, 2011 18:32

  I think it was rebarreled in West Germany in the late 60's. The Eagle Proof Mark with the downward pointing wings was used during that time frame. If it was, not surprising as the most of the 1920 Commercials were in 30 Luger caliber. Much easier to get 9mm ammo and the Luger would have way more potential resale value as a 9mm, them it would as a 30.
  
  EDIT #1, I was just going over my references on German Proof Marks and I believe I have given you the wrong information regarding the Eagle Proof Marks with the downward pointing wings. It appears that these are the proof marks used for guns used by the post W W I German Army that was established by the Treaty of Versailles. This army of no more then 100,000 men is known as the Reichsheer of the Weimar Republic. If this is correct, your Luger isn't a 1920 Commercial and would have substantial value to a military Luger collector or collector of Weimar militaria. As relatively few of these pistols were assembled in the first place, and not many survive.
  
  
  EDIT #2, Wood base mag would be correct for post W W I Weimar Lugers.
  
  Top value would be from a specialist Luger collector, who was knowledgeable about the Lugers used by the Weimar Republics Army. Most Luger collectors wouldn't know it from a pimple on their butt, and dismiss it as another red headed stepchild, 1920 commercial.
  
  EDIT #3, The guy who would have the most knowledge about your Luger and it's collectors value is Jan Still. He wrote a book about Weimar Lugers nearly 20 years ago, unfortunately it's long out of print. He does have a on-line collectors site that pertains to Lugers and other German militaria. You might be able to contact him through it.

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  perry shooter

  July 23, 2011 10:58

  IF you dismount the toggle and barrel from the frame look to seeif all of the inside surfaces are blued or just bare metal . anything built before WW II should have RUST BLUE and only the pistol parts viewed from the outside will be blued.
  
  EDIT One thing I noticed that is strange is the TWO entirely different font of the number 3 on the different parts of this pistol. This is on both the 4 number complete serial as well as the 2 digit numbers on the small parts. Most parts have a horizontal top to the number 3 some are hard to tell but pictures of the rear of the Toggle picture 9 as well as the lower grip frame in picture 2 have round tops [?][?][?] I have never seen TWO distinct but different FONTS on the same pistol . Not saying It may be a parts gun made up trying to deceive someone but would like to know if this is normal. [?][?]EDITThanks for sharing the great news . I have all of the Jan Still books except one . You guessed it the one I don't have is the one that covers this time frame of reworks. Very few posters come back to tell us "THE REST OF THE STORY " thanks again and good luck with your FIND. Karl

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  MrM1A1

  July 25, 2011 16:58

  Alright!! I got some very difinitive answers regarding the origins of my mystery Luger here, and thought I'd share in case anyone else is as curious as I was.
  
  I was informed on another forum (geared toward Lugers) that this pistol is a "29 DWM military. According to Jan Still's Weimar Lugers, Luger production in 1929 to early 1930, was approximately 30000. They are in the commercial serial range with s, t, and u suffixes, but most went to the police, some military and a few commercial. They started out as commercials, with 30 cal barrels and commercial C/N proofs. The police and militaries had the barrels changed to 9mm and added military style numbering and proofs."
  
  The serial numbers have different fonts due to the arsenal rework, which makes sense now that I know it was rebarreled and refurbed for military use.
  
  A knowledgable collector estimated its value at roughly $1,300-$1,400, which is WAY more than I anticipated.
  
  With the production of this particular Reichswehr service pistol at only 30,000 units, this one being all matching with original(rework) finish, is considerably more rare than I anticipated as well.
  
  rufe-snow, you were right in line with your research concerning the Weimar eagle proofs, thank you again for your help, I would have amost certainly written this one off as a commercial gun with minimal collector value without your insight and recommendations.
  
  If anyone has any questions, feel free to PM me or reply here, I'd be happy to share any info I have learned or will learn in my research to come.

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