Bert H...Winchester Model 21 20 Gauge Questions...
I have a very nice Winchester Model 21 in very good condition. I think it was made in 1947. The action on this shotgun is VERY tight. You have to actually push open the gun (it will not fall open). The bluing is also very good considering the age. The only places showing considerable wear in the bluing around the floor plate and trigger guard from being carried. I'd rate the bluing in 80%, but with the action being so tight...I was wondering if it might be closer to 85%.?.? The stock is in very good condition as well and has some nice wood. It appears as if someone has probably changed out the butt pad but I'm not certain about that. What are your thoughts on this gun. It's in far better than 60% condition, but at 60% it books at $5500. I appreciate your thoughts! [:)]
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The butt pad is original to the gun. 0 -
Eric;
Letter would either "bolster" your appraisal or knock holes in it. Nice 21, but does show it's age. I'm sure Bert will have a better answer...
Paul
Mountain Magic Gunsmithing0 -
"Maybe" a 60% gun. It's had plenty of use. The joint pin, or pivot pin maybe tight, but the locking bolt and pin are "well used". The position of the top lever shows that. The position of the lever on a 100% gun, should be on the same angle to the right. That one is about done. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by we_dig_it
The butt pad is original to the gun.
How do you know without the letter? Its a field grade and wood has all been refinished cant tell about the metal but a gun with that much use most likely has been reblued. All of the screws are out of time, so it has been taken apart. Forearm has had a bunch of extra checkering added to it, and is considered customized. Top lever is way too far left and it needs some work. It is a 20 gauge and that is in its favor. The spec sheet is free to cody members and would tell the story. If those are 30" barrels you really have something but they are most likely 28" f/m. Pauline could also give you the history of that gun.
Edit:IMO the pulp wood on the stock looks too light and so do the crevices of the checkering, it should be black and you should not be able to see the grain of the wood in the checkering. I would lean toward the original finish/stain being removed once, but Im not the expert Bert is. Also when winchester wood ages it gets darker, not lighter (like the fore end). A gun with this much milage USUALLY has some dings to go with it... What does the recoil pad say on it? Is it brown or red? Looks brown to me and that is not winchester, these guns usually came with a plastic butt plate on them.0 -
The beauty of these kinds of doubles is that it comes with its own odometer. It's the release lever.
They will always remain tight..much as the pads on a disc brake will always re-set to compensate for the minute wear each time the brake pedal is depressed. Now, and with that said..
This gun will run out of useful set to the lockup before too long. The lever should have been pointing to the 5:30 position (as viewed from the top-muzzle away from the observer) if the gun had zero mileage on it.
It is what it is. Sorry. Joe0 -
This is my opinion of the gun.
60% is real close... it definitely is not an 80 - 85% condition gun. The lock-up has very little to do with the graded condition of the rest of the gun.
I am willing to bet that the solid red rubber recoil pad is factory original, though it is possible that it might not be.
The stocks have definitely seen a lot of wear & tear, but I do not believe they have been refinished. The gun definitely shows that owner carried and shot it very frequently.
I believe that it would be real tough to get even $5500 for it.0 -
I think there is at least 80% bluing coverage with the wood condition being in 60+%. Whether the bluing is original or not is hard to say by the pics we have available to us. What's the bore condition? I believe the buttpad is original as well. The functionaly, and therefore the operational condition is an altogether different story. Since I don't know much about this aspect, I'd have to defer to those who have made note of it, before I could give an overall rating to the gun's condition, but it sounds as if it's a serious drawback to its operational condition.
Added: I think Trap might have the overall condition rating nailed at about 60%.0 -
Wood's re-finished.. Finish applied over worn checkering, and not matching the metal wear.. Note the safety area and forend latch.. Appears re-blued.. Side shot of frame shows wallowed countersinks, and rounded edges.. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by cartod
quote:Originally posted by we_dig_it
The butt pad is original to the gun.
How do you know without the letter? Its a field grade and wood has all been refinished cant tell about the metal but a gun with that much use most likely has been reblued. All of the screws are out of time, so it has been taken apart. Forearm has had a bunch of extra checkering added to it, and is considered customized. Top lever is way too far left and it needs some work. It is a 20 gauge and that is in its favor. The spec sheet is free to cody members and would tell the story. If those are 30" barrels you really have something but they are most likely 28" f/m. Pauline could also give you the history of that gun.
Edit:IMO the pulp wood on the stock looks too light and so do the crevices of the checkering, it should be black and you should not be able to see the grain of the wood in the checkering. I would lean toward the original finish/stain being removed once, but Im not the expert Bert is. Also when winchester wood ages it gets darker, not lighter (like the fore end). A gun with this much milage USUALLY has some dings to go with it... What does the recoil pad say on it? Is it brown or red? Looks brown to me and that is not winchester, these guns usually came with a plastic butt plate on them.
I should have re-phrased....That is a correct winchester pad,IMO. Whether it belongs to that model 21 is to be seen. But that style was used on 21's....How's that?[:)]0 -
quote:Originally posted by we_dig_it
quote:Originally posted by cartod
quote:Originally posted by we_dig_it
The butt pad is original to the gun.
How do you know without the letter? Its a field grade and wood has all been refinished cant tell about the metal but a gun with that much use most likely has been reblued. All of the screws are out of time, so it has been taken apart. Forearm has had a bunch of extra checkering added to it, and is considered customized. Top lever is way too far left and it needs some work. It is a 20 gauge and that is in its favor. The spec sheet is free to cody members and would tell the story. If those are 30" barrels you really have something but they are most likely 28" f/m. Pauline could also give you the history of that gun.
Edit:IMO the pulp wood on the stock looks too light and so do the crevices of the checkering, it should be black and you should not be able to see the grain of the wood in the checkering. I would lean toward the original finish/stain being removed once, but Im not the expert Bert is. Also when winchester wood ages it gets darker, not lighter (like the fore end). A gun with this much milage USUALLY has some dings to go with it... What does the recoil pad say on it? Is it brown or red? Looks brown to me and that is not winchester, these guns usually came with a plastic butt plate on them.
I should have re-phrased....That is a correct winchester pad,IMO. Whether it belongs to that model 21 is to be seen. But that style was used on 21's....How's that?[:)]
I think Bert has kind of nailed it...kimi's assesment pretty much matches mine. As to Cartod's comments. This wood is very dark and it does match the handling wear from being carried. It's very difficult to see the grain of the wood in the checkering. The forend is the darkest part of this gun...that and the area in front of the pistol grip (indicative of being carried for years).
The bluing is 80% by all definitions of the blue book. I've learned something new about the release lever. Another day...someone else learned. Thanks!
There's no apparent rebluing near the safety at all...that's worn/bare metal.0 -
quote:Originally posted by AAAC
quote:Originally posted by we_dig_it
quote:Originally posted by cartod
quote:Originally posted by we_dig_it
The butt pad is original to the gun.
How do you know without the letter? Its a field grade and wood has all been refinished cant tell about the metal but a gun with that much use most likely has been reblued. All of the screws are out of time, so it has been taken apart. Forearm has had a bunch of extra checkering added to it, and is considered customized. Top lever is way too far left and it needs some work. It is a 20 gauge and that is in its favor. The spec sheet is free to cody members and would tell the story. If those are 30" barrels you really have something but they are most likely 28" f/m. Pauline could also give you the history of that gun.
Edit:IMO the pulp wood on the stock looks too light and so do the crevices of the checkering, it should be black and you should not be able to see the grain of the wood in the checkering. I would lean toward the original finish/stain being removed once, but Im not the expert Bert is. Also when winchester wood ages it gets darker, not lighter (like the fore end). A gun with this much milage USUALLY has some dings to go with it... What does the recoil pad say on it? Is it brown or red? Looks brown to me and that is not winchester, these guns usually came with a plastic butt plate on them.
I should have re-phrased....That is a correct winchester pad,IMO. Whether it belongs to that model 21 is to be seen. But that style was used on 21's....How's that?[:)]
I think Bert has kind of nailed it...kimi's assesment pretty much matches mine. As to Cartod's comments. This wood is very dark and it does match the handling wear from being carried. It's very difficult to see the grain of the wood in the checkering. The forend is the darkest part of this gun...that and the area in front of the pistol grip (indicative of being carried for years).
The bluing is 80% by all definitions of the blue book. I've learned something new about the release lever. Another day...someone else learned. Thanks!
There's no apparent rebluing near the safety at all...that's worn/bare metal.
Of course not, that was referring to the wood not showing the same wear as the safety area.. Surely there's a real gunshop in your area that could help you with the simplest of observations..0 -
quote:Originally posted by AAAC
quote:Originally posted by we_dig_it
quote:Originally posted by cartod
quote:Originally posted by we_dig_it
The butt pad is original to the gun.
How do you know without the letter? Its a field grade and wood has all been refinished cant tell about the metal but a gun with that much use most likely has been reblued. All of the screws are out of time, so it has been taken apart. Forearm has had a bunch of extra checkering added to it, and is considered customized. Top lever is way too far left and it needs some work. It is a 20 gauge and that is in its favor. The spec sheet is free to cody members and would tell the story. If those are 30" barrels you really have something but they are most likely 28" f/m. Pauline could also give you the history of that gun.
Edit:IMO the pulp wood on the stock looks too light and so do the crevices of the checkering, it should be black and you should not be able to see the grain of the wood in the checkering. I would lean toward the original finish/stain being removed once, but Im not the expert Bert is. Also when winchester wood ages it gets darker, not lighter (like the fore end). A gun with this much milage USUALLY has some dings to go with it... What does the recoil pad say on it? Is it brown or red? Looks brown to me and that is not winchester, these guns usually came with a plastic butt plate on them.
I should have re-phrased....That is a correct winchester pad,IMO. Whether it belongs to that model 21 is to be seen. But that style was used on 21's....How's that?[:)]
I think Bert has kind of nailed it...kimi's assesment pretty much matches mine. As to Cartod's comments. This wood is very dark and it does match the handling wear from being carried. It's very difficult to see the grain of the wood in the checkering. The forend is the darkest part of this gun...that and the area in front of the pistol grip (indicative of being carried for years).
The bluing is 80% by all definitions of the blue book. I've learned something new about the release lever. Another day...someone else learned. Thanks!
There's no apparent rebluing near the safety at all...that's worn/bare metal.
I think Bert kinda blew this one IMO...[;)] Sorry Bert..0
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