Heritage Rough rider 45/410
Anybody had any experience with these? This is Heritage Arms version of the Judge. I saw one NIB at a gunshow for $369. Nice looking gun with tight cylinder gap and very nice wood/metal fit and finish. I passed on it because I knew no reports good or bad about it.
Any info much appreciated.
Don
Any info much appreciated.
Don
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quote:This is Heritage Arms version of the Judge
Never seen nor touched one of these, but that's all I need to hear. I'd pass.
Even if its a great execution (eg see Smith and Wesson's "Governor" that also takes .45ACP), in my opinion the .45/.410 revolver concept is still lousy.
In a nutshell, its the "worst of both worlds". You take a perfectly good defensive caliber (the .45LC) then squish it into a platform that is by design bulky and inaccurate. A gun designed to shoot both .45lc and .410 ends up shooting neither one all that well.
Meanwhile, the .410 shotgun is a marginal bore best suited for training children. Its fundamentally unsuitable for sporting clays, shooting ducks, or hunting anything larger than a rabbit (and even that at close range only).
Now, if you start with this fundamentally anemic round, gimp it further with a short rifled pistol barrel that ruins its pattern and limits its velocity, why would you think that you'd have something that's an awesome self-defense platform?
If its not adequate to kill a 30 lb coyote, are you going to trust it to defend your life against an angry 190 lb male human assailant?
In short, these hybrid guns merge a weak and practically useless shotgun with a semi-obscure pistol in a suboptimal platform.
My suggestion is that if you want a shotgun, buy one.
If you want a defensive handgun, any .38. 357, .44, or .45 revolver will outperform one of these hybrid guns.0 -
quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
quote:This is Heritage Arms version of the Judge
Never seen nor touched one of these, but that's all I need to hear. I'd pass.
Even if its a great execution (eg see Smith and Wesson's "Governor" that also takes .45ACP), in my opinion the .45/.410 revolver concept is still lousy.
In a nutshell, its the "worst of both worlds". You take a perfectly good defensive caliber (the .45LC) then squish it into a platform that is by design bulky and inaccurate. A gun designed to shoot both .45lc and .410 ends up shooting neither one all that well.
Meanwhile, the .410 shotgun is a marginal bore best suited for training children. Its fundamentally unsuitable for sporting clays, shooting ducks, or hunting anything larger than a rabbit (and even that at close range only).
Now, if you start with this fundamentally anemic round, gimp it further with a short rifled pistol barrel that ruins its pattern and limits its velocity, why would you think that you'd have something that's an awesome self-defense platform?
If its not adequate to kill a 30 lb coyote, are you going to trust it to defend your life against an angry 190 lb male human assailant?
In short, these hybrid guns merge a weak and practically useless shotgun with a semi-obscure pistol in a suboptimal platform.
My suggestion is that if you want a shotgun, buy one.
If you want a defensive handgun, any .38. 357, .44, or .45 revolver will outperform one of these hybrid guns.
BTS, thanks for the insight. Hornady developed a load called the PDX1 which is specifically designed for the Judge platform. It utilizes 3 discs and 12 BB shot. Supposedly a pretty lethal dose when you stagger the 6 shot cylinder with .45LC, PDX1, ect...
I agree there are better big bore self defense guns out there.
Regards, Don0 -
quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
quote:This is Heritage Arms version of the Judge
Never seen nor touched one of these, but that's all I need to hear. I'd pass.Agreed....and for pretty much the same reasons.
A .410 isn't much of a fight stopper even out of a full length barrel.
Your goal with a self defense weapon is to stop the person's actions NOW. Over the years I've been involved in several incidents where people have been shot with .410's and I've never seen one that stopped them quickly. It's not uncommon to have people stay on their feet for quite some time, sometimes even running a block or more after taking a full load in the torso at fairly close range.
Sure, such wounds often prove fatal - eventually. The problem is that it doesn't stop the threat quickly enough.0 -
sorry winchester has the PDX loading in both 12ga and 410ga[;)] 0 -
quote:Originally posted by fordsix
sorry winchester has the PDX loading in both 12ga and 410ga[;)]
Fordsix, you are correct. It is Winchester, not Hornady that developed the PDX1. My mistake. The Judge and the Bond Arms Texas Defender are 2 guns that these loads were specifically designed for. they may not be the most effective weapon ever developed, but they sure are selling well.
Regards, Don0 -
i find the PDX a bit stiffer in the recoil but it has the dirty old urine smell 0 -
quote:Originally posted by DONDALINGER
BTS, thanks for the insight. Hornady developed a load called the PDX1 which is specifically designed for the Judge platform. It utilizes 3 discs and 12 BB shot. Supposedly a pretty lethal dose when you stagger the 6 shot cylinder with .45LC, PDX1, ect...
I agree there are better big bore self defense guns out there.
Regards, Don
I'm aware that these hybrid 45/.410 guns are popular. IMO that's based on slick marketing by Taurus coupled with general ignorance of their actual performance. When people who don't know guns hear "shotgun" they start thinking about 12 gauges with 00 buck. They don't realize that the .410 is literally only about 1/6 as powerful, and that outside of the "Judge" fantasy pushed by Taurus, in the real world the .410 is basically used for hunting teensy birds or squirrels at close range and introducing really small children to shotguns.
I'd go so far as to say that ANY conventional revolver is superior as a defensive arm to these .410/45LC monstrosities.
You could make a case that the .45/.410 guns are better than a common .38 special purely because the .45LC round is more powerful. I think that's valid, though it begs the question of why you need the ability to fire near-worthless .410 shotshells from the same platform.
If you feel the need for shotshells (eg against snakes), then you could always stuff your conventional revolver with commercial or handloaded shotshell loads designed for that purpose. They're all uniformly weak, but they ought to be adequate specifically against snakes at only a few yards.
Yes, the .38 is less powerful than a .45LC, but the round itself is quite a bit cheaper, and available everywhere in a variety of loads. The typical .38 revolver is also itself cheaper, more accurate, lighter, more compact and portable, offers less recoil, and typically one more round capacity (6 vs 5) in the cylinder vs the .410/45LC guns. I'd say that for most shooters these advantages outweigh the pure ballistic advantage of the .45LC.
Addressing the substance of your remark, as you say, the PDX-1 load you mention is from Winchester, not Hornady. By coincidence, I just referenced it in a concurrent thread on handgun .410 loads, here:
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=527144
If you have to stagger the shotshells with the .45LC rounds to get a "lethal dose", then what's the point of the shotshells?
More to the point, your .45/.410 hybrid gun only holds five rounds. Its entirely possible that you may be facing multiple attackers, may only be able to get off one or two shots, or (horror!) that you might miss. Why would you want to compromise 40% or 60% of your defensive payload with questionable anemic shotshells?
Bluntly, in my opinion, this load is nothing special. Its just another anemic, but high-tech LOOKING load designed to impress the same sort of person who thinks that a .410 is a good round for defensive use.
Even stipulating that this miniature "buck and ball" round is the most awesome .410 defensive handgun round out there. . .you're still starting with a .410, the bore barely suitable for hunting rabbits!
Getting down to specifics, at only 750 fps per flat buckshot, you're starting off at the muzzle with less ballistic pop per projectile than a weak .32ACP. On top of that, the flat disc shape should reduce your already limited penetration, ruin your shot pattern, and cause you to lose velocity faster than a conventional round ball. I just don't see much to crow about here.
As a different comparison, a weak wadcutter .38 special target round will put out a single 148 grain .36 caliber flat profile projectile equivalent in weight to two of these flat buckshot at the same velocity. Only it will be quite a bit more accurate, offer less recoil, and double the penetration at 50% (or less) cost per round. Meanwhile, NOBODY thinks that a .38 wadcutter is a great defensive round!
Needless to say, I'm not all that impressed by the addition of round unstabilized BBs going 750 fps either.
That kind of ballistics is what a low-end air rifle puts out (ie the plastic kind you buy at Walmart for your kid for $75 for shooting in the backyard). Again, those ballistics are OK for hunting rabbits.. . if you limit your range and take careful shots. They're not terribly impressive against humans.0 -
BTS, Its very clear that you are not a fan of these .45/.410 platforms and I see you have some valid points. Some people love them, some do not.
For the record, the Heritage version of the Judge has a 6 shot cylinder, not 5(not that it matters,just saying).
Regards, Don
Here is a pic of this controversial handgun-
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Ballistic testing of the PDX and other ammo for these guns is at Box o' Truth.com. #53 "Taurus Judge revisited". 0 -
Bottom line for me concerning the .45/.410 platform is this:
Hats off to the mfg's that produce these "niche" handguns (Taurus, Bond Arms, Heritage, S&W, ect...) They have been successful through innovation. At the end of the day, these guns could save someones life and stop a threat and may add new numbers to the ranks of gunowners. If it strengthens the gun mfg's by adding sales that may not have been there prior to these guns being introduced, I support it. We need as many new recruits to the shooting sports as we can get. If the .45/.410 platform adds to the number of gunowners, more power to it.
Have a nice day.
Regards, Don0
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