Loading shells for Taurus Judge, 3" x 3"
I just got the Beastie, and already want to experiment ((VERY CONSERVATIVELY!)) with this::===> .410 bore hulls are nominally 3". The Judge also fires .45C. But there is a LoooonG jump from case-mouth to forcing-cone for 45C, and a long, rattling journey out to the muzzle. If a 3" magnum shot-shell were loaded with the same lead as the .45C, and comparably stoked with FAST-BURNING powder, should the accuracy increase? That's my whole evil gambit: to see if I can build a 50-yd Judge ! ! ! We might be seeing Judges with Millet adjustable sights.
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I had one of the original 2.5" Judges never could get it to shoot accurately with .45 LC, except with light loads. The problem your going to run into with hot loaded shotgun shells is that their is a internal flange or ridge in the cylinder holes. This was done by Taurus to prevent fools from firing .454 Casull & .460 S & W in it. Hot loaded shotgun shells expand around this flange making extraction very difficult. You might try Winchester .410 AA hulls, I had my best luck using them for reloading. The plastic their made of is much tougher then the plastic used in other shotgun shells I tried.
EDIT #1, Just remembered the I.D. of .410 shotgun shells is much smaller then the .452 diameter of standard L.C. bullets. As I recall the largest lead balls I could load in my shells were around .370/.380 diameter? Depending on the type/maker of the hulls. Winchester AA's as I noted before had thicker plastic then other hulls.
EDIT #2, I second beaners comments, bigtime! He has nailed the problems with the Judge to a T. Taurus stumbled on a goldmine when they put the Judge on the market. I'm just sorry for all the gullible folks including me, who bought one of their useless POS's. All the factory and handloads I put through mine, it wouldn't pattern past 5 yards with the shot loads, and was only halfway accurate with very light .45 LC handloads with oversized lead bullets.
Personally if I were you, if it's still in NIB condition? Take it back to the dealer for a refund or trade in on something else. Screwing with a Judge is just a exercise in frustration as far as I'm concerned. If you keep it, all it's going to be is a very expensive wall hanger/conversation piece.0 -
Considering the popularity of the judge I would think that if something like that was practical or useful it would already have been done (and be commercially available).
I don't think most guns with 3'' barrels are made to be very accurate0 -
quote:Originally posted by ABRACADABRA
I just got the Beastie, and already want to experiment ((VERY CONSERVATIVELY!)) with this::===> .410 bore hulls are nominally 3". The Judge also fires .45C. But there is a LoooonG jump from case-mouth to forcing-cone for 45C, and a long, rattling journey out to the muzzle. If a 3" magnum shot-shell were loaded with the same lead as the .45C, and comparably stoked with FAST-BURNING powder, should the accuracy increase? That's my whole evil gambit: to see if I can build a 50-yd Judge ! ! ! We might be seeing Judges with Millet adjustable sights.
Sow's ear ====> silk purse.
Taurus Judge =====> match pistol.
Pig ====> lipstick.
Taurus Judge =====> Millet match sights.
Rather than go off on another rant on the relative worthlessness of the Taurus "Judge" revolvers, I'll just offer the following suggestion.
"Free bore" (jump of bullet to rifling) isn't the only limiting factor in the Taurus' poor accuracy. There is also the shallow rifling designed specifically not to ruin shot patterns.
IMO, you're just wasting your time here.
If you'd like a 50 yard gun, you're going to have a much easier time getting there starting with something designed with accuracy in mind, rather than a clumsy compromise type gun designed fundamentally as a marketing gimmick for individuals clueless about defensive firearms.
As an aside, I've suggested elsewhere that a "smart" thing to do would be for someone to come up with a black-powder pressure brass cartridge load with similar external dimensions to a .410 shotshell. That load would, by itself, be ballistically comparable to a .45LC, but it would "agree" with the proper revolver design much better and potentially give quite a bit more accuracy than the .45LC from a gun that can also shoot .410 shotshells.
If the gun and brass were constructed properly, it should then also be possible for handloaders to work up serious magnum-type loads too, giving you something with the ballistic punch of a .41 magnum (or better), and also the versatility to fire out of the box .410 shotshells.
In effect, you'd have a "Judge" that was actually potentially powerful and accurate.
But of course, use for such a gun would still be pretty limited.
Edit:
Responding to Rufe, above.
In fact, before Taurus called this revolver the "Judge", it was just another poor-selling odd caliber gun in the Taurus catalog. It wasn't until after Taurus heard about some lunatic South Florida Judge actually carrying one of these in their courtroom that they came up with the intriguing name "Judge" and the accompanying marketing blitz, that these guns took off commercially.
Again, I don't want to turn this into a "Judge" bashing thread, but that worm-can just got opened! Here are a few of my earlier thoughts on the Judge, including some ballistic information.
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=443252
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=453054
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=468165
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=481949
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=501325
In a nutshell, the Taurus Judge is the "worst of both worlds": You have a heavy bulky pistol unsuitable for concealed carry, and too inaccurate for hunting or serious target shooting, married to a shotgun that not only patterns uselessly past 20 feet, but also lacks the power to kill any game larger than maybe a squirrel.
On top of that fundamentally weak combination, the gun has at least two separate design flaws (loose cylinder retention that can make the cylinder fall off, and a tendency for shotgun primers to back out, locking up the gun) that also make it fundamentally unsuitable for use as a defensive arm.
In short, there really isn't a lot to recommend here. Even novelty value is pretty limited, since the .410 shotshells have such lousy patterning. I could *maybe* see this as a combination defense/anti-snake gun, though I think even in that role, a more conventional revolver loaded with snakeshot would probably work better.0 -
Use 1/5 oz. .410 slug loads. Or load 1/5 oz. slugs in brass cases for the .410. Or, buy a gun that's better for 50 yard shots, and use the Judge for what it was designed for; very close range snake defense with .410 shot or multi-ball close range defense with .000 buck or Win PD type loads.
Trying to change a gun from what it is into what it's not is an exercise in futility that can get expesive at best, and can be dangerous at worst.0 -
I gave my friend at work 2 boxes of 3" magnum steel.410 shells(Russian
Golden Bear) slugs and 5 pellet buckshot. He has the long barreled
circuit judge. The groups of buckshot were tight at 30 feet and the
slugs worked well. He had to use a dowel pin to knock out the steel
empties, as the tapered inside cylinder made all the empties stick.
The primers also backed out a hair. The accuracy of the 45 long colts
were terrible. You'll need to use plastic .410 shells. Also the
heavy weight of a 45 colt slug (240 grains) verses a 3" shell with
19.5 grains of shot or 11/16 oz. And you want to load a .410 shell
with a 240 grain slug with fastpowder,will detonate the cylinder.[xx(]
Heavy loads always require a slow burning powder and not recommended
outside a reloading books guideline.0 -
Gentlemen, I have been educated -- and also gone around the corner of the barn once or twice Thank You ALL. You have managed to keep the "Judge-slurs" to an unexpected minimum, but have raised the warning flag of Tuth and Responsibility over your respective camps. Thanks again. Any experiments will be posted here, with pics. Good, Bad, "meh!","Tolllllldja So!", and whatever else. As far as a good "Snake gun" Who was "The Snake" wrestler ... Jesse Ventura?? If I could air-brush some rattler scales on this piece, and have "The Snake" autograph it, I might get my money back on Gun-Broker. I got it there, 15-min. auction, for $395. It was listed as 6", but came to me as a 3"x 3". A single cheap book-end. I'll be sure to write. (Again: I do appreciate the safety-knowledge, gun-intellect, and fair-square info from you all.) 0
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