9mm vs. .40 rifle for varmits
I frequently see coyotes while in the tractor or combine. I don't want to use a rifle cartridge because of the proximity of houses, farms, and livestock. I built a 9mm AR that I now use. I recently have become intrigued with the Keltec Sub 2000 in .40. It will fit much better in my cluttered cabs. Ballistically, what am I looking at between the two calibers with both being fired from a 16" barrel as far as effective range, bullet drop, etc. I'm currently using Israeli surplus +P+ ball in the AR and it is suiting me well.
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I don't know how far away the homes & livestock are from your farm, but best be careful! The 9mm bullet from a long barreled carbine probably has a muzzle velocity of between 1300-1400 fps, at least. One of those hitting a rock at the wrong angle could ricochet and do serious damage to something or someone at better then a mile.
Years back the NRA "American Rifleman" magazine had a article about such a tragedy that took the life of a young child. I doubt seriously that the 40 cal would be any safer the the 9mm in that respect. If you don't have a solid backstop behind your target, I wouldn't be shooting at anything.0 -
Hello Farmer--- For the reasons stated above, I wouldn't use either of the cartridges you mentioned. Assuming you can hit the dirt somewhere short of the other properties, I would suggest the .17 HMR, or .17 fireball, or mabey the .204 Ruger. The bullets from these guys are not likely to ricochet, regardless of what they hit. I would be VERY concerned about the sherrif wanting to talk to me about the neighbors window, or perhaps much worse. What ever you chose, keep the bullet small, and the velocity high. HAWKSHAW 0 -
+1 on the ricochet concerns with the pistol calibers. They just don't have the velocity to break up the bullet when it hits the ground or a rock. If you use ball ammo the bullet is designed to hold together and increases the ricochet danger. Consider pulling the 9mm parts from your AR and buying a 5.56 upper with a 16" barrel. if you use a collapsing stock you will have a very short carbine to stow, especially with a 10 or 20 round mag. If you use a highly frangible bullet like the 55 or 60 grain ballistic tips these bullets disintegrate on most impacts. I tested this very scientifically - they blow up beautifully on a prairie dog from a 12" H&K G-41K. The chrono says the load is only doing about 2450 fps out of the short tube. 0 -
I think they're tring to tell you to use a small shotgun, like the .410
your shot size depends on how far away the coyotes are. Ideally a savage 24 combo with the.410/.22 rifle would work best under those conditions of near-by homesteads.
just my .02 cents.0 -
Hello Farmer,
You really need to clarify what kind of distances to the houses, farms, and livestock, that we are talking about here. I would advise against the pistol chambered carbine, as it will enhance the distance a bullet could travel. Also, the Keltec Sub 2000, has rather crude sights, which would not aid in hitting your target to slow the bullets down. It would be kinda pivotal to unfold, and that type of thing, when you see a fleeting yodel dog. If your 9mm AR is working well, I would stick with it, but be very careful around the populus.
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Here in Missouri, alot of the cattle farmers I know like long barreled .22mag revolvers. The Ruger Single Six is, of course, the favorite, but I know guys who have Heritage guns too. During calving season they keep a close eye on varmits. 0 -
If you have room for an AR, I'd certainly prefer to use one in .223 with light bullets that are more likely to disintegrate when they hit the ground or any obstruction. A 17 HMR would be another choice but most of those rifles are much bulkier than an AR.
Any rimfire handgun will result in more ricochets due to the lower velocity. Having said that, a Ruger 22/45 5 1/2" is my most often carried gun but I don't have much worry about houses around here.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Farmer Brown
I frequently see coyotes while in the tractor or combine. I don't want to use a rifle cartridge because of the proximity of houses, farms, and livestock. I built a 9mm AR that I now use. I recently have become intrigued with the Keltec Sub 2000 in .40. It will fit much better in my cluttered cabs. Ballistically, what am I looking at between the two calibers with both being fired from a 16" barrel as far as effective range, bullet drop, etc. I'm currently using Israeli surplus +P+ ball in the AR and it is suiting me well.
It really is a nice light compact package, but unfortunately the trigger on Kel-Tec Sub 2000 is a long-pull double-action trigger, not really conducive to varmint shooting, which requires a certain amount of precision.
So caliber issues aside, I don't think this is a good choice for the purpose you describe.
EDIT:
On caliber, because of the substantially lower muzzle velocity pretty much any pistol caliber cartridge is going to pose significantly less risk to distant targets than pretty much ANY centerfire rifle cartridge.
Compare the 1350 fps muzzle velocity you'd see from a 9mm +P round from a carbine, vs the 3000 fps or so from the typical .223.
But the problem is that either of these could potentially seriously injure or kill a person at distances exceeding several hundred yards pretty easily. In other words, NEITHER one is probably all that safe if the background houses are within a few hundred yards.
If that sort of risk is a concern, by far the MOST safe type of firearm in that respect is a shotgun. Because of their high surface area/weight ratio shotgun pellets lose velocity relatively quickly.
Even heavy buckshot peter out pretty fast, and past 150 yards or so the pellets are travelling slow enough that they are unlikely to cause serious injury.
Then again, your effective range on a coyote with buckshot is likely not more than 40 yards, though you might be able to push that a little more with the right choke and shells.0 -
I agree that the 9mm or .40 are not really suited for the work you are trying to accomplish. I imagine the coyotes you are trying to kill are going to be less than 100 yards out.
Therefore, i concur that you use a light frangible bullet in caliber .223 or .17HMR. I think the .17HMR is the best choice, but I do not know if anyone makes an AR upper and magazines in that caliber.
You could of course, buy an inexpensive (but accurate) Savage bolt gun in .17HMR, cut the barrel back to sixteen inches and either buy it with a youth stock or cut the stock back a couple inches and install a thin plastic buttplate. That should give you a compact package easily up to your size and safety standards. The sixteen inch barrel should be accurate to 100 yards or more. The five round internal magazine and bolt configuration saves more space and prevents you from spraying, trying to hit fleeing coyotes.0 -
I am with Wolf and a Savage in 17 HMR. Saw one the other day that would fit the bill just fine. The barrel was cut to 18 inches and the stock was modified to take a plastic AR 15 collapsible stock. He carried it collapsed, extending as he brought it into use. Got to watch min overall length of the rifle...which I think is 28 inches. 0 -
Regardless of the caliber you choose, I have had two Kel Tec Sub 2000 40 S&W carbines, and I can't recommend them. The have a incredibley fragile front sight and you can't put a scope (or any other optic) on the gun without loosing the ability for the gun to fold into a compact package. I use a Marlin 1894c in 357 mag with a Leupold 2x7 scope as my carry gun when I'm on my tractor...haven't taken any coyotes yet, but did get three deer with it last year! 0 -
My dad used to put a Remington Model 700 7MM REM MAG in the corner of the front/side window of the combine. We had sheep & cattle back then & coyotes/ wild dogs were thick. When he would get down to the last round or two the coyotes would come out from fence rows and trot along side of the combine. They waited for rabbits to dash out of the last few rows. When he saw one he stopped the combine with all parts running at same RPM and just opened the door and blew the chit out of them!
I guess the game warden caught word and politly asked him to case it while on the roads and to not shoot out of the cab.[:D]
Anything like a 22mag or .17HMR would be handy in the cab.0 -
the most important thing is that you use something that you're comfortable with. 0 -
9mm would be good enough IMHO. With +P+ hollow points you should be able to kill stuff dead at 150 or 200 yards with alittle kentucky windage.
The Sub2000 in 9mm that uses glock 17/18 magazines is a good option because of the plentiful but cheap Korean made glock mags in 17 and 33 round capacity.0 -
quote:Originally posted by quickmajik
9mm would be good enough IMHO. With +P+ hollow points you should be able to kill stuff dead at 150 or 200 yards with alittle kentucky windage.
The Sub2000 in 9mm that uses glock 17/18 magazines is a good option because of the plentiful but cheap Korean made glock mags in 17 and 33 round capacity.
Sorry, but that is totally irresponsible. Encouraging the spray and pray tactic in the near proximity of dwellings.
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