Time to Close Down the ATF
This week, Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA) beamed a spotlight on the criminal behavior of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, commonly referred to as the ATF. At Wednesday's hearing, Issa took on Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich by asking him: "Who authorized this program that was so felony stupid it got people killed."
http://gunowners.org/a06172011.htm
http://www.offensivestuff.com/wordpress/?p=1548
http://gunowners.org/a06172011.htm
http://www.offensivestuff.com/wordpress/?p=1548
0
-
quote:Originally posted by J 1357
The Atf, needs to be reformed, not abolished. Most of the atf employees are no different tnan you and I. I have a neighbor who works as an agent. Why do we condemn the whole, when its the leadership that needs replacing?
We condemn the president, do we want to abolish the presidency?
It isn't about the people employed, it is about the fact that a federal gun police force, enforcing federal 'gun laws' is blatantly unconstitutional.
'The right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed', except that government at all levels routinely infringes upon that which they are prohibited from infringing upon and the fed-gov has created a federal police force with the mission to enforce laws that spin off that unconstitutional infringement along with creating and enforcing a plethora of unconstitutional regulations expressly designed to infringe upon the uninfringeable.
Kafkaesque.0 -
quote:Originally posted by J 1357
The Atf, needs to be reformed, not abolished. Most of the atf employees are no different tnan you and I. I have a neighbor who works as an agent. Why do we condemn the whole, when its the leadership that needs replacing?
We condemn the president, do we want to abolish the presidency?
You got me twice, J1357, but not again.[:I]
I will give anyone the benefit of the doubt a few times, but this post makes it obvious that you are yanking our chains.
Well played, sir.0 -
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by 45long
Yeah. J. I wouldn't trust him with anything gun related.
Sovereignman,, They did the same thing with the EPA and thier many clones. One of the MOST Anti-Business departments ever created.
Yes, alphabet soup compartments that are out of control, and the despots are making their own laws (rules) oppressive government from any source is despotic. Some here are attached to the idea of big brother to fix all their ills, but it's just political laziness in my opinion. Did any one see that the officials and ATF heads from the fast and furious setup were given a higher position in the government administration by Obama. That's right get a fellow citizen killed AND MOVE ON UP!0 -
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
This week, Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA) beamed a spotlight on the criminal behavior of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, commonly referred to as the ATF. At Wednesday's hearing, Issa took on Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich by asking him: "Who authorized this program that was so felony stupid it got people killed."
http://gunowners.org/a06172011.htm
http://www.offensivestuff.com/wordpress/?p=1548
Update: U.S. Senate
Senator Blasts ATF's Reported Promotion of Supervisors in Ill-Fated Gun Operation
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/08/16/senator-blasts-atfs-reported-promotion-supervisors-in-ill-fated-gun-operation/#ixzz1VFW5rOZp
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/08/16/senator-blasts-atfs-reported-promotion-supervisors-in-ill-fated-gun-operation/
Rep. Issa: Holder 'Absolutely' Knew About Fast & Furious Earlier Than He Testified
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHkaRU9EoVM&feature=related
Obama launched fast and furious.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PNhYk9NuNc&feature=related
Time to write and call your congressperson....0 -
quote:Originally posted by RogueStatesman
Let me just go on and say this ...
There is NO useful purpose for the BATFE in our society. Gun laws are unConstitutional and are without merit, unless you're one who leans and accepts a nation based upon socialism and totalitarianism. Our Founding Fathers wrote our nation's documents and those documents are the reasons ATF should NOT EXIST.
Enfringing upon the Rights of the American citizen has been the ATF's goal from its conception and they continue to chip away at our freedoms while going basically unchecked.
Disbanning and disarming the BATFE is the ONLY ANSWER.
quote:Originally posted by ninefingers
ATF does have a use, but needs serious reality check. Anti-gunners have NO place as its chief. They need do there job objectively.
No agency has right of making, interrpreting, And enforcing rules. Not all three. That's why we have congreess, supreme court, And a president, not lumped together into some monarchy.
They redefined "flash powder" and "black powder" as:" H.E"--any chemist can tell you they are wrong. They have no business redefining chemistry and then enforcing it. They are only on the enforcing end, and do a poor job of that. Really should be left for more experiemnced, like federal marshals or FBI.
I met a dealer at a gun show, who had his customer fill out Federal transfer form to best of his abilities. Customer was ok'd. A Month later, ATF reneged, called the dealer and said:"What was his address, again?"[xx(] Their slip-up is Not the dealer's fault; it now makes Him look "bad" and possibly let a prohibited possessor get away. It also hurt his sales, and make him "gun-shy" (no pun!) of anyone who even Seemed "suspicious", after that snafu. He was ready to go over to the ATF booth at the gun show and chew them out with me.
latest Video of fast and furious
http://video.foxnews.com/v/1118950286001/tragedy-on-the-border/?playlist_id=868560 -
You have to understand how federal agencies work.
The Big Eared Leader, just like Slick Willie & that brilliant Dubya, staffed the top positions at every federal agency with folks who were willing to enforce their philosophy. In the case of all 3 presidents, they picked anti-gun toadies at ATFE. So, it should be no surprise at what has happened. The problem isn't ATFE, most of whose employees are honest & conscientious; the problem is the presidents we have elected!
Issa is frustrated because there is little that he can do. The only ways to bring ATFE to heel are 1) Congress passing new laws, & 2) riders attached to the DOJ appropriation bills. With the Dems controlling the Senate & all important Congressional committee chairmanships, there is little that can be done, other than hope that Fox News continues to inform the public.
The BEL & DOJ leadership have told Issa to perform a Dick Chaney, & there isn't a darn thing he can do about it.
Neal0 -
quote:Originally posted by nmyers
You have to understand how federal agencies work.
The Big Eared Leader, just like Slick Willie & that brilliant Dubya, staffed the top positions at every federal agency with folks who were willing to enforce their philosophy. In the case of all 3 presidents, they picked anti-gun toadies at ATFE. So, it should be no surprise at what has happened. The problem isn't ATFE, most of whose employees are honest & conscientious; the problem is the presidents we have elected!
Issa is frustrated because there is little that he can do. The only ways to bring ATFE to heel are 1) Congress passing new laws, & 2) riders attached to the DOJ appropriation bills. With the Dems controlling the Senate & all important Congressional committee chairmanships, there is little that can be done, other than hope that Fox News continues to inform the public.
The BEL & DOJ leadership have told Issa to perform a Dick Chaney, & there isn't a darn thing he can do about it.
Neal
t isn't about the people employed, it is about the fact that a federal gun-police force, enforcing federal 'gun laws' is blatantly unconstitutional.
'The right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed', except that government at all levels routinely infringes upon that which they are prohibited from infringing upon and the fed-gov has created a federal police force with the mission to enforce laws that spin off that unconstitutional infringement along with creating and enforcing a plethora of unconstitutional regulations expressly designed to infringe upon the uninfringeable.
Kafkaesque.0 -
quote:Originally posted by nmyers
You have to understand how federal agencies work.
The Big Eared Leader, just like Slick Willie & that brilliant Dubya, staffed the top positions at every federal agency with folks who were willing to enforce their philosophy. In the case of all 3 presidents, they picked anti-gun toadies at ATFE. So, it should be no surprise at what has happened. The problem isn't ATFE, most of whose employees are honest & conscientious; the problem is the presidents we have elected!
Issa is frustrated because there is little that he can do. The only ways to bring ATFE to heel are 1) Congress passing new laws, & 2) riders attached to the DOJ appropriation bills. With the Dems controlling the Senate & all important Congressional committee chairmanships, there is little that can be done, other than hope that Fox News continues to inform the public.
The BEL & DOJ leadership have told Issa to perform a Dick Chaney, & there isn't a darn thing he can do about it.
Neal
After James Madison's Bill of Rights was submitted to Congress, Tench Coxe (see also: Tench Coxe and the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, 1787-1823) published his "Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution," in the Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789 He asserts that it's the people (as individuals) with arms, who serve as the ultimate check on government:
"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow-citizens, the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms".
Hamilton :
Quote: "If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual State. In a single State, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair".
and finally
"The opinion of the Federalist papers has always been considered as of great authority. It is a complete commentary on our Constitution, and is appealed to by all parties in the questions to which that instrument has given birth. . . . "
--- The U.S. Supreme Court in Cohens v. Virginia (1821)
"Collective rights theorists argue that addition of the subordinate clause qualifies the rest of the amendment by placing a limitation on the people's right to bear arms. However, if the amendment truly meant what collective rights advocates propose, then the text would read "[a] well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the States to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." However, that is not what the framers of the amendment drafted. The plain language of the amendment, without attenuate inferences therefrom, shows that the function of the subordinate clause was not to qualify the right, but instead to show why it must be protected. The right exists independent of the existence of the militia. If this right were not protected, the existence of the militia, and consequently the security of the state, would be jeopardized." (U.S. v. Emerson, 46 F.Supp.2d 598 (N.D.Tex. 1999))
There are 3 ways the Second Amendment is usually interpreted to deny it was intended to protect an individual right to keep and bear arms:
It protects a state's right to keep and bear arms.
The right is individual, but limited to active militia members because the militia clause narrows the right's scope.
The term "people" refers to the people collectively, rather than the people as individuals.
Yet, three jurists, who were contemporaries of the Founders, and wrote constitutional commentaries, read the Second Amendment as protecting a private, individual right to keep arms. There is no contrary evidence from that period0 -
When a government agency is caught doing illegal things to subvert the right to keep and bear arms, it needs to be disbanded. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by pickenup
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
Time to Close Down the ATF
WAY past time.
I will second that. But if we can't get them 'shut down' out right we need to pressure the congress to defund them and the other out of control beaurcracies.[V]0 -
quote:Originally posted by RogueStatesman
Let me just go on and say this ...
There is NO useful purpose for the BATFE in our society. Gun laws are unConstitutional and are without merit, unless you're one who leans and accepts a nation based upon socialism and totalitarianism. Our Founding Fathers wrote our nation's documents and those documents are the reasons ATF should NOT EXIST.
Enfringing upon the Rights of the American citizen has been the ATF's goal from its conception and they continue to chip away at our freedoms while going basically unchecked.
Disbanning and disarming the BATFE is the ONLY ANSWER.
quote:Originally posted by ninefingers
ATF does have a use, but needs serious reality check. Anti-gunners have NO place as its chief. They need do there job objectively.
No agency has right of making, interrpreting, And enforcing rules. Not all three. That's why we have congreess, supreme court, And a president, not lumped together into some monarchy.
They redefined "flash powder" and "black powder" as:" H.E"--any chemist can tell you they are wrong. They have no business redefining chemistry and then enforcing it. They are only on the enforcing end, and do a poor job of that. Really should be left for more experiemnced, like federal marshals or FBI.
I met a dealer at a gun show, who had his customer fill out Federal transfer form to best of his abilities. Customer was ok'd. A Month later, ATF reneged, called the dealer and said:"What was his address, again?"[xx(] Their slip-up is Not the dealer's fault; it now makes Him look "bad" and possibly let a prohibited possessor get away. It also hurt his sales, and make him "gun-shy" (no pun!) of anyone who even Seemed "suspicious", after that snafu. He was ready to go over to the ATF booth at the gun show and chew them out with me.
The BATF has become a political arm of government, it should have it's claws removed.0 -
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by RogueStatesman
Let me just go on and say this ...
There is NO useful purpose for the BATFE in our society. Gun laws are unConstitutional and are without merit, unless you're one who leans and accepts a nation based upon socialism and totalitarianism. Our Founding Fathers wrote our nation's documents and those documents are the reasons ATF should NOT EXIST.
Enfringing upon the Rights of the American citizen has been the ATF's goal from its conception and they continue to chip away at our freedoms while going basically unchecked.
Disbanning and disarming the BATFE is the ONLY ANSWER.
quote:Originally posted by ninefingers
ATF does have a use, but needs serious reality check. Anti-gunners have NO place as its chief. They need do there job objectively.
No agency has right of making, interrpreting, And enforcing rules. Not all three. That's why we have congreess, supreme court, And a president, not lumped together into some monarchy.
They redefined "flash powder" and "black powder" as:" H.E"--any chemist can tell you they are wrong. They have no business redefining chemistry and then enforcing it. They are only on the enforcing end, and do a poor job of that. Really should be left for more experiemnced, like federal marshals or FBI.
I met a dealer at a gun show, who had his customer fill out Federal transfer form to best of his abilities. Customer was ok'd. A Month later, ATF reneged, called the dealer and said:"What was his address, again?"[xx(] Their slip-up is Not the dealer's fault; it now makes Him look "bad" and possibly let a prohibited possessor get away. It also hurt his sales, and make him "gun-shy" (no pun!) of anyone who even Seemed "suspicious", after that snafu. He was ready to go over to the ATF booth at the gun show and chew them out with me.
The BATF has become a political arm of government, it should have it's claws removed.
What in the hell do you mean "has become"?
Are you really that stupid?
It always was, and was intended, for better or worse, to be an arm of the "government".
Just how stupid are some of you folks?0 -
Stupid is as stupid does... 0
Please sign in to leave a comment.
Comments
43 comments