Defense Rifle
I want to expand my arsenal for defense and to be prepared for the results of Obamanomics. I'm not a sport hunter, but I do enjoy quality equipment, target shooting, and I want to have an adequate arsenal to protect my 6 acres, provide for short and long range defense, harvest small and large game, and deter a hostile threat to my property.
I presently have 3 revolvers, 38, 357, 45 acp, a 22 rifle with scope, and a 12 gauge pump. I figure this covers my close range defense requirements (revolvers), small game harvesting requirements (22 and 12 gauge games loads), and medium range defense and game requirements with 12 gauge 00 buck or rifled slugs.
I believe my next aqusition should be a rifle for accurate longer range game or defense use. I don't see a need to shoot more than about 200 yards, which I know is not really very far.
I'm not too knowledgeable about rifle ammo designations - 30-06, 243, 308, 243, 7.62X39, etc.
Please educate and enlighten me and offer your suggestions and reasons!
I presently have 3 revolvers, 38, 357, 45 acp, a 22 rifle with scope, and a 12 gauge pump. I figure this covers my close range defense requirements (revolvers), small game harvesting requirements (22 and 12 gauge games loads), and medium range defense and game requirements with 12 gauge 00 buck or rifled slugs.
I believe my next aqusition should be a rifle for accurate longer range game or defense use. I don't see a need to shoot more than about 200 yards, which I know is not really very far.
I'm not too knowledgeable about rifle ammo designations - 30-06, 243, 308, 243, 7.62X39, etc.
Please educate and enlighten me and offer your suggestions and reasons!
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A rifle in .308 will handle anything from a raccoon to a moose from 0 - 500 yards, and there are multiple rifles in this caliber in military configuration that would also be suitable for defense or combat.
So if you wanted "just one" for defense and hunting, I'd suggest that caliber.
As to which exact rifle, there are numerous ones that could work.
As a place to start the discussion, semi-automatic AR-10 platform rifles are highly popular for a number of reasons: they're accurate, modular, reliable, and parts and accessories are readily available, for customization. This is basically the large-caliber version of the common AR-15 (M4/M16) pattern military rifle. You could definitely do worse.
Make sure you also budget for a good scope.
In terms of other calibers, .243 is a great hunting round, and though it generally isn't used as such, it could serve as a great defensive round out to 300 yards. This one is a bit light for large game, so if you really want one "do it all" gun to double for hunting moose/elk I'd go bigger.
Ditto for 7.62x39. This one is the round used in the ex-Soviet bloc Kalashnikov and SKS rifles. Its a decent (if not spectacular) defensive round and so long as you use appropriate hunting ammo its also a perfectly fine medium game round out to maybe 150-200 yards. One big advantage here is that Russian military type steel case ammo is pretty cheap. But this one is also a bit on the weak side for large game.
.30-06 is ballistically similar to .308 or a bit more powerful. Like .308, this one is good for both defense, sniping, or hunting medium to large game. Only real drawback here is that in this day and age, there are far fewer military type guns available in .30-06, as compared to .308. For a true "all purpose" gun, I'd stick to .308.
If you wanted to go real cheap, military surplus Russian Mosin Nagant bolt action rifles can be had for $100 or less. The 7.62x54R ammo this gun takes is ballistically equivalent to .30-06 making it adequate for any game in North America. The surplus ammo is also available dirt cheap generally about $100 or less for a sealed tin containing 440 rounds of military type ball ammo. That's under $0.25 per round, making the ammo significantly cheaper than anything else in its power class. The sealed ammo tins also lend themselves well to long term storage, though the military surplus ammo uses corrosive primers, which means you have to clean your gun after firing it or the bore will rust.
Mosin guns are tough as tanks, though the older 19th century design isn't particularly ergonomic by modern standards.
Disadvantages would be relatively low capacity and rate of fire of this gun. . .no issue for hunting, but these are potential drawbacks as a modern fighting gun. Also, somewhat more work is necessary to mount a scope than with a more conventional modern bolt action rifle.0 -
For 200 yards or less an SKS Carbine would suit you very well. If you need more power you can snap up one of the Mosin Nagant rifles that are all over the place at $100 or less.
I just now read beantown's post and it looks like he had many of the same ideas ahead of me.0 -
I agree with Mark on the SKS carbine as a good all-around, go-to, can't-break-it sporting and defense long gun for virtually any application up to maybe 200 yards. I doubt I would ever get into a defensive firefight at anything over 25 yards, but I could put all my rounds into about a 6" circle at 100 yards with that gun.At 200 yards, I think you could be pretty sure of putting your shots in a 12-14" circle. I find that acceptable for a gun like this; it is not a target rifle, so forget about accurizing it.
The SKS carbine version is a bit harder to come up with than the standard SKS rifle, but it is handier. I have a Chinese Norinco forged receiver carbine version w/chrome bore I got maybe 15+ years ago. Back then I put together a nice little ranch rifle for under $200. I tossed the wood and the bayonet and I purchased a Choate Machine and Tool black composite sporting stock w/gastube handguard, a 5-rnd magazine (replaced the Chinese 10-rnd unit), and a Williams rear peep sight and I had a gun I could not break or damage or have to watch out for that did everything the ruger Mini-14 could do or more and the ammo was very cheap at the time. Fast forward to today the cost of that package is about $400.
Of course an AR-10 in .308 would be a great gun, but it costs way more and you wouldn't want that bouncing around in the back of your truck, your ATV or golf cart out on the ranch like I do.0 -
quote:Originally posted by mark christian
For 200 yards or less an SKS Carbine would suit you very well. If you need more power you can snap up one of the Mosin Nagant rifles that are all over the place at $100 or less.
I just now read beantown's post and it looks like he had many of the same ideas ahead of me.
Indeed.
I like SKS rifles, and think they make great "trunk" guns. I'd rate these higher, just that the original poster said "large" game, and I think the SKS falls a little short there.
Still, at roughly $250-300 an SKS is a high-value choice for defense and hunting medium sized game out to say 200 yards. The guns are rugged, reliable, and though not pinpoint accurate, generally accurate enough for "field" use.
Gun takes fixed 10 round magazines. That's more than necessary for hunting, but not so much in a gunfight.
On the other hand, the guns are reloadable pretty fast from stripper clips with some practice. A big advantage of these rifles is that even though they're military design semiautomatic rifles with a folding bayonet, lacking detachable magazines and vertical pistol grips, they're not considered "assault rifles" and are legal just about everywhere.
Take off the bayonet, and unlike most of the military type guns, an
SKS looks fairly "respectable", more like a conventional hunting type rifle.
SKS does have a few downsides.
Mounting a scope on one isn't trivial. Best mount requires the side of the receiver be drilled and tapped for a side "riser" type mount. On the other hand, a company out of Hartsville SC called Tech Sights makes an excellent adjustable rear peep sight that fits onto the receiver and works much better than the stock notched rear open sight.
Stock SKS triggers are usually pretty bad (ie long gritty and heavy pull) though they can be improved by good gunsmithing.
As mentioned above, the 7.62x39 round isn't all that powerful. Its good enough for deer, but it would be on the weaker side for elk, moose, or (yikes!) brown bear. On the other hand, cheap non-corrosive Russian steel case military type ammo is readily available, and this is one of the most inexpensive centerfire rifle calibers out there right now.
SKS rifles use a floating firing pin design, which under certain circumstances can lead to "slam fires" (gun firing on closing of bolt) Also the safety design on an SKS is not good. Instead of locking the firing pin, it only locks the trigger, meaning the gun could theoretically still go off if dropped hard. Good handling practice (muzzle always in safe direction; chamber unloaded except during use) is especially important with these.
Lastly, typical stock SKS rifles are pretty heavy, especially with the bayonet in place (Yugo SKS weighs 9.25 lbs, if I remember right). That makes recoil mild, but also makes them a bit rough to tote around.
Edit: Chinese SKS carbine (the so called "paratrooper" version) is nice and handy, being shorter and a good bit lighter than the typical true military issue guns, though these are a harder to find and more expensive than the typical military surplus SKS.
My experience with SKS rifles in general is that accuracy is roughly what Wolf said above. Trigger job and peep sights definitely make the gun easier to shoot.
Edit #2: A 30/30 lever action rifle is certainly a viable defense choice, and in fact, for many years these were used as defensive longarms by many rural Southern police depts.
The guns are light, handy, legal everywhere, and totally innocuous in appearance. Obviously, the traditional 30/30 is good for hunting, though again, maybe a bit on the weak side for truly large game. You're also probably pushing things trying to go out to 200 yards with one of these with the usual flat point ammo; certainly that's tough with typical iron sights. The "lever revolution" ammo adds a good bit of distance and power.
SKS is ballistically similar to a 30/30, though it offers better capacity, and significantly cheaper ammo. Cost of the gun itself is roughly comparable. SKS will be heavier and potentially less accurate. Its faster to load an empty SKS from a stripper clips than a 30/30 one round at a time, but the side gate design of a 30/30 means you can top-off the tubular magazine at any time without taking it out of action (ie fire one, load one) so you won't run dry on ammo.
In theory rate of fire is higher with a semi-automatic SKS, though with practice you can cycle a lever action rifle when the gun is recovering from recoil, meaning that in practice, its possible to deliver aimed shots with a levergun nearly as fast as with an SKS.0 -
i think to really know what rifle to get you would need to get you would need to answer these questions.
1. do you want one rifle or multiple rifles
2. what is your price range
3. do you want something manual or semi auto
4. how concerned are you about ammo price and availability
personally i say get a mosin they work and they're cheap then get something better if you want.0 -
Spas12's four questions are spot on. Answer those and we will be better able to advise you. 0 -
I will attempt to help you out. Outdoor rifles should not be the same as indoor defense rifles. indoor rifles need to be compact, controllable, and while being very destructive to live tissue, the projectile it fires should dump its energy upon impact, instead of blowing through a half dozen walls with enough energy left over to maim or kill.
Here are some good examples of ideal indoor rifles.
FN Fs-2000
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=231825708
MSAR STG-E4
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=231629637
Steyr AUG A3
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=231924585
these rifles are all bullpup rifles chambered in 5.56x45 / .223remington. when loaded with light weight high velocity rounds this rifle is ideal for inside the home use and use against varmints without fear of ricochet, yet will reach out to 400 or 500 yards without much effort. The ideal rounds for inside home defense are of the varmint variety. for instance a 40 grain bullet with a velocity of 3800FPS from the 16" barrel.
Longer range shooting can be more effectively done by switching to a load of the 68 to 70 grain match variety.
the FS-2000 is the most ideal because it can be used ambidexteriously without modification, it also uses standard AR-15 30 round mags. Most bullpups can only be configured to shoot conventionally from either the left or right side exclusively.
the FS-2000 is forward ejecting. meaning it has a tube over the barrel which extrudes cases from the front as they build up.
I personally perfer the AUG type bullpup rifle myself, but the FS-2000 would be easier to use for most people.
Another option for inside the home defense is the pistol caliber carbine. pistol caliber rifles are quieter and generally more pleasant to shoot.
A few examples of good pistol caliber carbines are the Keltec Sub-2000 and the beretta storm carbine.
An AR-15, or ruger mini-14/mini-30 is always a good gun to have handy. If I could pick any gun I would go with a Noveske N-4 with a 16" barrel and mid length gas system. Or the CMMG 14.5" barrel mid length carbine with perminately attached muzzle device makeing it legal to own.0 -
quote:I want to have an adequate arsenal to protect my 6 acres, provide for short and long range defense, harvest small and large game, and deter a hostile threat to my property.
There is only one way to deter a hostile threat, and that is to eliminate it.
I will tell you, for the reasons of minimizing your inventory(although you jus can't have too many guns[:D]), the way to go would be an AR-10 platform in 308. It can do anything the 30-06 can do, and when equiped correctly, is capable of 800-1000 yards.
There are other military style semi-auto's in this chambering, but they just do not compare to the AR-10.
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Recently Larry Potterfield of Midway did a test of a defense rifle. he tested it in various categories, such as stopping power/first round time test/rate of fire test/jam frequency/close quarter etc etc. The rifle tested, surprise, the 30/30 lever action carbine, scored very well. 0 -
Thank you all. Very good info.
I was thinking about something not to exceed $500. I would like the ammo to not be too expensive and to be easily available. Semi-auto would be desireable. This would be an outside gun. The revolvers and shotgun would be the choice for in house defense. No brown bear or moose capability required. The SKS or AK sound like likley candidates. I don't like the "slam fire" possibility of the SKS though. Scanning the auctions, I see Saiga, WASR, and Zastava that might fill the bill and could even be acquired new in my price range.
Any thoughts on those manufacturers?0 -
While it's old school, I'd toss the M-1 carbine into the mix. Short, easy to handle, with good soft or hollow points is about on par with a .45 and you don't have to worry about over penetration as much as with the rifle rounds. 0
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