Help identify this old rolling block

Grey Shooter

May 21, 2011 12:35

This old rifle has been in a friends family for years. It has almost no markings on it. The only marks are behind the front sight and says....... G. K. Pierce
Grand Rapids
Serial number is behind the trigger guard and reads 25809.

The barrel is 1 1/4 inch octagonal stock and measures 29 1/4" from breech face to end of barrel. Total length of rifle is 45 1/2". The barrel is rusted up unfortunately, I'm working on cleaning it out so the chamber measurements are a bit rough to figure out. The diameter is about .505" and head space around 2.11". It appears to be a .44 or .45 caliber. Has a wooden cleaning rod under the barrel. It also has two dove tails cut into the barrel for the front sight??????

Here's a bunch of pictures. We are both really curious about the old thing. Thanks for any expertise. John

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  hrf

  May 21, 2011 13:10

  It's G. R. Pierce; from an article about Grand Rapids Gunsmiths:
  
  " About 1858, or a little earlier, George R. Pierce opened a gunsmith shop on Monroe street below Waterloo."
  
  The 1860 and 1870 G.R. censuses list him as a gunsmith born about 1830 New York.
  
  He may have rebarreled an action with the heavy target barrel, or only retailed the gun. You might carefully tap out the wedge and remove the forend and see if barrel is marked underneath.
  
  A chamber cast should determine what it's chambered for, but if you mean chamber length instead of headspace, the dimensions you list are about right for .45-70.

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  MP

  May 21, 2011 13:34

  Interesting rifle, I believe that's a Whitney action and not a Remington.

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  JohnnyBGood

  May 21, 2011 14:26

  I will venture a guess that your barrel originated
  from a muzzle loader, as the turned down muzzle you
  pictured was commonly done to accommodate a bullet
  starter.
  
  Johnny

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  iceracerx

  May 21, 2011 14:42

  quote:Originally posted by JohnnyBGood
  I will venture a guess that your barrel originated
  from a muzzle loader, as the turned down muzzle you
  pictured was commonly done to accommodate a bullet
  starter.
  
  Johnny
  
  
  While your guess might be well and true, it was common during the late 19th century for target shooters to muzzle load their bullets while using breach loaded metallic cartridges for the charge.
  
  The thought behind loading the bullets from the muzzle was two fold:
  
  1) it assured the barrel was clean of any fowling
  
  2) the bullet was seated in the lands of the rifling.

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  JohnnyBGood

  May 21, 2011 15:01

  quote:Originally posted by iceracerx
  quote:Originally posted by JohnnyBGood
  I will venture a guess that your barrel originated
  from a muzzle loader, as the turned down muzzle you
  pictured was commonly done to accommodate a bullet
  starter.
  
  Johnny
  
  
  While your guess might be well and true, it was common
  during the late 19th century for target shooters to muzzle
  load their bullets while using breach loaded metallic
  cartridges for the charge.
  
  The thought behind loading the bullets from the muzzle was
  two fold:
  
  1) it assured the barrel was clean of any fowling
  
  2) the bullet was seated in the lands of the rifling.
  
  
  
  Yes, you are correct, and I am well aware of such loading
  procedures. However, such loading was done using a false
  muzzle as pictured below. A big benefit of the false
  muzzle was that it would accumulate the wear of repeated
  loadings while preserving the very important rifling at
  the muzzle of the actual barrel.
  
  
  
  The Rolling Block under discussion here does not have a false
  muzzle but a bullet starter, two different things. Nor is this
  Rolling Block anywhere near a Schuetzen type target rifle.
  
  Then again, we could both be wrong and the turned down muzzle
  on the Rolling Block was done to accommodate a bayonet! [:0]
  
  Johnny

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  Grey Shooter

  May 24, 2011 06:23

  Thanks for the replies. I sent the pictures and description to National Firearms Museum and here is there response.
  
  John:
  
  
  
  Thank you for your inquiry to the National Firearms Museum.
  
  
  
  George Richmond Pierce operated in Grand Rapids from 1852 to 1875 and the barrel follows the profile of one of his percussion target rifles from that period. The rounded barrel step was intended for use with a false muzzle in loading. The now missing original front sight would have been a much more elaborate item.
  
  
  
  The action that this rifle is built from started life as a Remington No. 1 rolling block carbine and by the configuration of the now-missing frame sling swivel point, it was likely a foreign contract gun - possibly for Mexico or Argentina. But more than a million Remington rolling blocks were made and the contract markings were usually on the barrel. The serial number on the bottom of the tang is found also with foreign contract arms. The irregular numbering there points more towards Mexico than anywhere else. These actions started coming on the market as surplus just before the turn of the last century.
  
  
  
  What this piece looks like is a gunsmith combined gun utilizing available parts. Remington actions were popular for building Gemmer-style sporters well before modern single-shot competition interest began. Possibly a gunsmith in the time period from 1890 to 1940 took an old .45 muzzleloading barrel, rechambered it for metallic cartridges, threaded it and fitted it to the Remington action. The stocking would have been done at the same time.
  
  
  
  National Firearms Museum

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  cbyerly

  May 24, 2011 06:53

  Custom rifle built on Whitney rolling block action.

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  hrf

  May 24, 2011 07:15

  quote:Originally posted by cbyerly
  Custom rifle built on Whitney rolling block action.
  
  
  I agree, as MP also noted earlier, it's a Whitney action, not a Remington, distinguished by the hammer and breechblock pins that have tabs or ears held by a central screw, and the extra screw below same.

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