IAC 1887 & 1897
Does anyone know if either the IAC 1887 or 1897 are decent, functioning shotguns? I was thinking about buying one to kind of play around with. I just dont want to spend the money on an original Winchester or put a scratch in one but I still want a classic style shotgun.
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Hi,
I have an IAC/Norinco-made clone of the Winchester Model 1887 lever-action shotgun. I also have three original Winchester Model 1897 pump-action shotguns. I use these guns in Cowboy Action Shooting (CAS) competition. Both guns were designed by John B. Browning.
I have not fired the IAC/Norinco clone of the Model 1897 pump, but from what I have heard, their actions are a tad rough, but functional. A lot of them are being used today in CAS competition. However, in my opinion, there are too many original Model '97's around for me to want to buy the Chinese version. The originals were carefully made and hand fitted. If you buy an original, expect to pay $400-$450 for a decent functional one and more for a really good one. The price has escalted due to the 97's renewed popularity in CAS competition (in fact, that's why the chinese are making them and the '87). Originals came in two variations...a takedown and a solid frame. There were more take-downs made. It's a great shotgun.
The Model 1887 levergun clone that I have was an unexpected surprise to me because I found it is much nicer than I expected. I have had mine several years and the walnut wood is good and the fit and finish are as good as or better than any average commercial weapon. I am especially pleased with the workmanship of the the wood-to-metal fit...it is a tight, close fit and is not raised above or lowered below the metal. The action is a tad rough, but is very acceptable and you need a leather wrap on the bottom of the lever to cover the sharp metal where the lever is partially hinged near the trigger guard. You will only find the IAC clones of the '97 pump or the '87 levergun with 20" CAS cylinder bore barrels.
The "problem" with the Model '87 levergun clone, if you want to call it that, is in its ejection. The clones were copied exactly from the originals by the Chinese. Today, the most common size shell length is 2-3/4", but the Win'87 was designed to fire 2-1/2" shells. This generally is not a problem for most guns, but it appears that the IAC clone of the Win Model 1887's action makes for the empty hulls not wanting to eject well....it ejects, but the ejection can be very weak unless the action is vigorously worked. I have not figured out yet how to make the ejection more positive. There are a number of so-called "cowboy gunsmiths," some of who specialize in working on the IAC '87 clone, that say they can "slick it up," make the ejection function better and make it sing and dance. Personally, I think that few, if any, of these people understand the gun's design and my advice is that you stay away from these wizards unless you get a good look at their work and how well they fix that ejection problem, without screwing something else up...meaning, you should fire a box of shells through it first to check it out. They take weeks or months to turn around your gun, many of the busy ones have less-than-stellar "helpers" in their shops doing much of the work and too often, the gun actually comes back and is not functional!!. I am not slamming the IAC Win 1887 clone (or the original Winchester '87, for that matter), because I like mine just fine and shoot it all the time in CAS...and that is with the weak ejection and without the help of the wizards. You will get lots of style points with this gun.
There is also an Italian (I believe) clone of the Win 1887 levergun, but their guns have have a design change that enables (for CAS competition) quick loading of two shells at a time through the breech. The magazine on the IAC holds 5 rounds, like the originals...the Italian gun holds only two, I believe, which minimizes its desireability as a defense weapon. The Italian gun sells for twice what the IAC sells for.
Also, very few original Model 1887 lever guns are fired for any reason today, especially in CAS, although I have seen a few. The reasons for that are that there aren't many of them around (waaay fewer were made than the Win Model 1897), Those that are available and functional today are usually not in such good condiiton, about half or more of the originals were made in 10gauge, and most importantly, they should never be fired with smokeless powder....black powder only! Black powder and its corrosive characteristics is probably the reason there are not too many of the originals around. Originals should have, on the left side of the receiver, a round script monogram of the Winchester Repeating Arms Company about 2" in diameter.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Wolf.
Hi,
I have an IAC/Norinco-made clone of the Winchester Model 1887 lever-action shotgun. I also have three original Winchester Model 1897 pump-action shotguns. I use these guns in Cowboy Action Shooting (CAS) competition. Both guns were designed by John B. Browning.
I have not fired the IAC/Norinco clone of the Model 1897 pump, but from what I have heard, their actions are a tad rough, but functional. A lot of them are being used today in CAS competition. However, in my opinion, there are too many original Model '97's around for me to want to buy the Chinese version. The originals were carefully made and hand fitted. If you buy an original, expect to pay $400-$450 for a decent functional one and more for a really good one. The price has escalted due to the 97's renewed popularity in CAS competition (in fact, that's why the chinese are making them and the '87). Originals came in two variations...a takedown and a solid frame. There were more take-downs made. It's a great shotgun.
The Model 1887 levergun clone that I have was an unexpected surprise to me because I found it is much nicer than I expected. I have had mine several years and the walnut wood is good and the fit and finish are as good as or better than any average commercial weapon. I am especially pleased with the workmanship of the the wood-to-metal fit...it is a tight, close fit and is not raised above or lowered below the metal. The action is a tad rough, but is very acceptable and you need a leather wrap on the bottom of the lever to cover the sharp metal where the lever is partially hinged near the trigger guard. You will only find the IAC clones of the '97 pump or the '87 levergun with 20" CAS cylinder bore barrels.
The "problem" with the Model '87 levergun clone, if you want to call it that, is in its ejection. The clones were copied exactly from the originals by the Chinese. Today, the most common size shell length is 2-3/4", but the Win'87 was designed to fire 2-1/2" shells. This generally is not a problem for most guns, but it appears that the Model 1887's action makes for the empty hulls not wanting to eject well....it ejects, but the ejection can be very weak unless the action is vigorously worked. I have not figured out yet how to make the ejection more positive. There are a number of so-called "cowboy gunsmiths," some of who specialize in the gun, that say they can "slick it up," make the ejection function better and make it sing and dance. Personally, I think that few, if any, of these people understand the gun's design and my advice is that you stay away from these wizards unless you get a good look at their work and how well they fix that ejection problem, without screwing something else up...meaning, you should fire a box of shells through it first to check it out. They take weeks or months to turn around your gun, many of the busy ones have less-than-stellar "helpers" in their shops doing much of the work and too often, the gun actually comes back and is not functional!!. I am not slamming the IAC Win 1887 clone, because I like mine just fine and shoot it all the time in CAS...and that is with the weak ejection and without the help of the wizards. You will get lots of style points with this gun.
There is also an Italian (I believe) clone of the Win 1887 levergun, but their guns have have a design change that enables (for CAS competition) quick loading of two shells at a time through the breech. The magazine on the IAC holds 5 rounds, like the originals...the Italian gun holds only two, I believe, which minimizes its desireability as a defense weapon. The Italian gun sells for twice what the IAC sells for.
Also, very few original Model 1887 lever guns are fired for any reason today, especially in CAS, although I have seen a few. The reasons for that are that there aren't many of them around (waaay fewer were made than the Win Model 1897), Those that are available and functional today are usually not in such good condiiton, about half or more of the originals were made in 10gauge, and most importantly, they should never be fired with smokeless powder....black powder only! Black powder and its corrosive characteristics is probably the reason there are not too many of the originals around. Originals should have, on the left side of the receiver, a round script monogram of the Winchester Repeating Arms Company about 2" in diameter.
Who is John B. Browning? Any relation to John M(Moses). Browning?0 -
The models of all three that i dealt with were ok. The 1887 is actually closer to the 1901 action. The lever MUST BE WORK BRISKLY! in order for the gun to operate properly. Some of the older guys who came through the shop said the 1897 was just as rough as the originals they handled as children when they were new. 0
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