Non Lethal 12ga round
Hope I put this in the right place
OK
We just had tornado rip throgh a small town not more then 3 miles from me and I was over at one of the houses replacing some broken windows and the homeowner was telling me how he had to get his 12ga out to run off some looters who would not listen to his verbal warnings to leave the property next door to him ( neighbors were away ) so this got me to thinking ( being it could have easily been my neighborhood ) about rock salt rounds or rubber pellets ,beanbag rounds etc, I would value any input as to what you guys would recomend for a "NON LETHAL" round and what brand., please no macho "Just blow them away" responses ( I'm saving that for a life threatning situation )
Thanks in advance
OK
We just had tornado rip throgh a small town not more then 3 miles from me and I was over at one of the houses replacing some broken windows and the homeowner was telling me how he had to get his 12ga out to run off some looters who would not listen to his verbal warnings to leave the property next door to him ( neighbors were away ) so this got me to thinking ( being it could have easily been my neighborhood ) about rock salt rounds or rubber pellets ,beanbag rounds etc, I would value any input as to what you guys would recomend for a "NON LETHAL" round and what brand., please no macho "Just blow them away" responses ( I'm saving that for a life threatning situation )
Thanks in advance
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All those beanbag rounds, rubber bullets, tear gas, etc are intended mainly for police and military, as a bridge between verbal warning and use of deadly force.
The problem for you is that if you point a shotgun at somebody, legally speaking you're threatening deadly force. Shoot someone with a beanbag round, and that's assault with a deadly weapon. . .same as if there were live rounds in there.
If you hurt them (or anything else) you're liable.
You can use it to protect your life or that of someone close to you, but not your neighbors property.
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Edit, expanding a bit. The problem here is that in a post-tornado situation there really might not be any police handy to respond to a call. This is one of the actual REALISTIC survivalist/"SHTF" situations that it probably is worth actually preparing for. We're talking about a situation where there has been some sort of natural (or potentially manmade) disaster where power may be out, clean water may be out, and there may be no effective law enforcement for a few days. That's when looting and such usually happens.
Its really hard to say what to do in a situation like that. If someone is breaking into YOUR home, then in most States (though NOT MA!) the "Castle Doctrine" applies. . .if you feel threatened you can legally use deadly force against invaders.
On your NEIGHBOR's property? Problem. You don't have the legal right to use or threaten deadly force unless you feel YOUR LIFE is at risk. Hard to see how someone looting your neighbors TV threatens your life.
Lets say you shoot a beanbag round at one of them, and they don't run away. Then what? If you're going to follow up with a live round, then why not just start with one?
Want to shoot them? How about with a VIDEO CAMERA? Get a good shot of their faces, voices, and vehicle. That's got to have deterrent effect.
Edit #2:
You may not have asked for legal advice, but you're getting it to explain why you can't buy "less than lethal" rounds at your local Walmart or most gunshops. Use one of these and not only are you basically asking to get sued, you're also putting yourself in a position where you're likely to lose, too.
As to less than lethal rounds, your choices are pretty limited. Here's the selection.
http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/lesslethalammo.html
Frankly, I'm skeptical about the efficacy of these sorts of things.
You can kind of get a sense of what they do from this video and a bunch of similar ones from the sidebar (worth watching, since you'll see a variety of reactions when people get hit):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xP2uNILlUkw0 -
In my opinion bad idea. you could still be sued. or charged by police . Dial 911 and hold them at gun point if you have to waiting for police. But if police are busy because of number of calls then confront them armed with REAL ammo try to get License number and take their picture. . I was watching a friends house for the summer years ago and ran 3 6 foot and taller "BOYS" out of his house they decided to throw a party in . I called the Law and helped in catching the boys they had cleaned out house of all Booze and been smoking pot they brought to the home. they even had sleeping bags. Police did nothing because they could not find FORCED entry. One BOY county supervisor son. I had a meeting with Home owners assn. officers, lawyer and POLICE as well as boy's parents and their lawyer . The parents threaten to sue me for Mental Anguish to BOYS and them-self. I stated if it had been my house the BOYS would not be having mental anguish because the parents would be viewing their bodies at local undertakers. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by plinked
please no macho "Just blow them away" responses please ( I'm saving that for a life threatning situation )
If it's not life threatening, you should not bring out the guns (at least that's the law around these parts, agree or disagree). Manufacturers have stopped calling them non lethal, but rather "Less lethal". You can still kill with beanbag rounds or rubber projectiles. My opinion (no expert) if you are set on less lethal is load a less lethal round first, then follow with typical defense rounds. That way, if/when you stand before a jury, your attorney can honestly say you tried to incapacitate before using lethal force. Personally, I'll stick with 00 Buck.
See Firequest or Deltaforce for a list of some less lethal & exotic shotgun rounds, that'll give you an idea of what's out there. Shop around to find the best deal once you find something you like. Good luck!0 -
Sure "non-lethal" is all good and such, as long as the "looters" are also playing by your rules. I'd pack a couple of nons with follow ups of buck shots. So you can shuck the nons out and get nasty.
As you might know them non lethals got a short range.
I do wonder about the legality of "protecting" your neighbor's pad with a shooter?0 -
I know you guys have good intentions but I did not ask for legal advice, I asked for recomendations for non..er..Less lethal rounds.
Really guys this is more then just protecting my neighbors place Beantown's expanded post with the exception of edit #2 ( I already know legalities of using them and where to buy them ) is more on the same page of thinking I'm on
Badchris
Thanks, I'll go check out delta force and firequest0 -
I have seen rock salt rounds used to good effect. But, they are strictly "roll your own"; checked my reloading manual, it only lists lead & steel.
The least lethal of store bought rounds is probably #12 shot.
Neal0 -
As noted above, the Less-lethal round is either rubber bullets - both bomb shaped and ball - or "bean-bag" the bean bag comes in two types, flat or drag stabilized. Law enforcement has almost completely abandoned the flat style because of some cases when the projectile struck the suspect edge-on and penetrated, sometimes with fatal results. The drag-stabilized version is like a sock with a quantity of fine shot in the front sewn up compartment and the leg of the sock forming a tail. It works like a sea anchor and keeps the projectile flying accurately so that the round nose is the impact point. This greatly reduces the potential of penetration. There is still danger if the head is struck or impact is directly over the heart. As stated above, check the local legal concerns regarding the use of deadly force when not defending life or inside the protection of the "castle doctine". 0 -
When there is a need to actually point a firearm at someone then you have reached the point of needing lethal force and not scare tactics because they just might have their own gun and decide to level the playing field by pointing it right back at you. If you have a beanbag shell and they have real ammo you are in a world of hurt when the bullets start flying. In my opinion the days of bad guys being scared off at the vrey sight of a firearm are long since over and if you are going to point a gun at someone you'd better expect him to shoot back rather than run away terrified. 0 -
Ground chili pepper or just plain old ground black pepper will get them moving.
Emmett0 -
Sorry folks, but neither rock salt nor black pepper is effective at any significant range- unless maybe you are having a cookout, and want to season the stuff on the grill. See box of truth for tests they have done.
Back to the OP- The drag stabilized beanbag rounds are fairly good. The rubber buckshot LOOKS good- until you start checking how well it works- mass x velocity squared- and the mass is not all that great per pellet, and speed drops like a bad habit. Both are mainly used for submission at relatively close range.
As you have stated- the term is "less lethal" not "less than lethal". I know of a prison inmate that died from a beanbag shot- he was rushing the officer who fired with a stun baton. The bag hit him in the face, broke his nose, shoving bone into brain.
Frankly, if there WAS a "magic bullet" that worked, we woulda been using it for years. You MAY want to look at Pepper Balls- like paint balls, but filled with OC pepper spray. And you CAN get a full auto paintball gun.....0
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