1911 "English Order" Russian
Met a gentlemen at the NRA meeting that showed me a picture of a 1911 45 that he said was one of 51K sent to the Czar of Russia before the revolution. He was asking $4,500. Does this sound right? He also said that he talked with Clawson and he said that it was the real thing. Any idea on the real value.
Thanks for the help.
Owen
Thanks for the help.
Owen
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I would get it in writing, F to F from Clawson before springing that kind of money for it. The problem is that the Russian guns were Colt Commercial 1911's taken from production in serial number ranges approximately 20,000 to 80,000, they were not all consecutively numbered. Because of this some wise guy could get his hands on one in the correct range and have the Russian markings added to the frame.
EDIT #1, I believe you misunderstood the above post. My point is for you to contact Clawson directly to verify that the Colt is one of the Russian contract 1911's, as the present owner maintains. Since he told you he had already been in contact with Clawson regarding it, shouldn't be a problem. Offer to pay for a authentication letter if need be.0 -
Thanks for the suggestion. I did call him and ask about the serial number and he has spent the $100 with Colt to get the serial number checked that it was shipped to Russia. Will this make the gun more valuable?
Owen0 -
Yes, but.....you are getting into an area that you know little about. There are many high dollar guns that have been skillfully refinished, & you need extensive knowledge to tell the difference between "original" & "fake".
We went through this a few months ago on this forum. I think you will get a lot from reading this post, as well as the 4 follow-up posts:
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=500089
and
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=500828&SearchTerms=1911
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=501099&SearchTerms=1911
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=501225&SearchTerms=1911
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=502860&SearchTerms=1911
Neal0 -
quote:Originally posted by Owen
Thanks for the suggestion. I did call him and ask about the serial number and he has spent the $100 with Colt to get the serial number checked that it was shipped to Russia. Will this make the gun more valuable?
Owen
Time for some detective work. Two items..
1. I believe* that Colt will send a follow-up hard copy of the findings [of a particular firearm] in the mail after they give the eval over the phone. Get the hard copy prior to purchase!
2. Find out just what Clawson said. Watch the seller closely (gauge reaction-eye contact, etc) when you inform him that you will need a written buy-back agreement if, after you buy the gun and send it to Clawson, that Clawson spots the gun as bogus after a closeup examination.
Above sounds extreme, I'll admit. I can't think of a more iron-clad way of protecting your investment, however.
Watch his eyes. They will speak to you volumes. Best, Joe
*..can anyone confirm??0 -
Thanks to all that have responded. I asked that he send me some pictures when I get them I will post them. The finish is about 60% and he has added white to bring out letterin.
Owen0 -
Owner has received a letter from Colt. One of 6,000 sent on November 16, 1916 to the government of Russia.
Owen0 -
Owner got a letter from Colt. Gun was shipped to Russian Government November 16, 1916 one of 6,000.
Owen0 -
quote:Originally posted by Owen
Owner got a letter from Colt. Gun was shipped to Russian Government November 16, 1916 one of 6,000.
Owen
Since the advent of computers and laser printers this business of purported documentation has gone to hell in a handbasket. To many wise guys and bottom feeders are adept at using these modern devices for knocking out phoney documents. For that kind of money I would have a pro like Clawson do a hands on, and independently verify that the Colt letter is genuine.0 -
The following is my opinion only. I am not a collector of old Colt 1911's, so I cannot say for certain that my opinons hold water. I am simply giving you my persepctive:
I believe that you need to look in the mirror and ask yourself a number of questions and consider a number of factors.
Are you a collector of old Colts? If so, this might be an addition to your collection. If you are a casual collector, you are most likely making an impulse buy to have bragging rights to an item, which is not unique in any way, other than it was shipped to a foreign country prior to the communist revolution, which in a few years will have passed from memory and for all practical purposes IS a moot point even now. In other words, who cares?
If this Colt held an important place in American history, or was a weapon proven beyond a doubt to have belonged to an important character in American history, such as a Colt SAA that was issued to the 7th Cavalry proven to have been at The Battle of the Little Bighorn and taken from a dead soldier by a Sioux Indian, or if it were S&W Schofield that was carried by Jesse James, or perhaps a Colt revolver belonging to John Wesley Hardin, then that is different. You would have a weapon that would attract quite a following of admirers.
In other words, I believe that this weapon will probably hold very limited interest to the average person or collector in the United States and in my opinion it is a buyer's market where something like this is concerned. So, if you buy the gun, you may have some difficulty getting your investment back when you decided to sell it and then, the buyer should/will have the same difficulty confirming the weapon's validity that you had.
Further to verification of the gun's authenticity, I believe you certainly should, perform all the background checks mentioned earlier herein, which will cost you in time and $$$ if you do it right. You may wish to hire the expert noted in the other relplies to verify the gun. In fact, I would have the weapon sent to him for hands-on inspection prior to buying it.
Furthermore I would commission my own letter from Colt and not rely on the seller's documentation.
Finally, it might be wise to have the gun sent to someone adept in restorations, such as Turnbull Resotrations to do a hands-on inspection and give you an opinion regarding whether they believe the gun's markings are genuine.
After I did all this legwork (if I was that interested to start with), I would apply a $$$ value to the time, effort and $$$ spent to do all those things and make an offer for the gun, deducting at least that amount from the asking price.
Of course all this is your call. There was a guy who posted a topic here on the ATE forum the other day with an old Winchester rifle that he paid a collector price for and found that the barrel had been replaced with an old, authentic Winchester barrel. That fact, however, turned his collector's item into a shooter. So, I would be very careful. Also, my personal opinion is that with 51,000 examples having been sent to Russia....that is too many to hold my interest, even though only a handful probably made it back to the US. But, how do you know that two years from now, 35,000 of them, in pristine condition, are not going to turn up in some Russian arsenal somewhere and be sold by some entrepreneur in the back of gun magazines for $2,100.00 each? Plus, with a 60 percent finish, the gun is too worn to hold my interest unless it was a bonafide relic from a significant point or person in American history. But all of this is just my opinion of course, based upon my interest. I think you should do what you think is best.0 -
Owner sent me a copy of the Colt letter. I offered him 3K and he countered with 4. Said that he will be putting in up this week. Thanks for all your help. I will have to see what happens.
Owen0
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