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Shoulder Stock

sunngunn
GB# 85027979 has a shoulder stock shown that would be perfect for a project i am in the middle of but am having a case of SMSS (senior moment search stupid)& no luck on finding mfg or info...i defer to the endless wisdom of this board & request anything you all can offer...thanks
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12 comments

Date Votes
  • sunngunn
    I have a Cimarron 357 / w/18"bbl. I would like to purchase a wood shoulder stock. Any suggestions ?

    Thank you / Sunngunn
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  • tsr1965
    sunngunn,

    Hello, and welcome to the forums here on Gunbroker.com

    While I am sure you are talking about an SAA knockoff, is it currently registered as a handgun? I am thinking it is, since it does not meet the overall length requirement to be a rifle. If so, you can attatch a shoulder stock as long as it has a barrel over 16 inches, but once you transform it into a carbine or rifle, you can't legally transform it back.

    Best

    EDIT 1

    Leebo5,

    quote:I own a gun similar to yours. It's made by Uberti,the "Cattleman" in 45 colt, made in 1972. It's like the Uberti Buntline Target model. Mine was imported by L A Dist. Inc. NYC, NY. and it came with a stock. I've seen stocks on Dixie Gun Works but I don't know if they would fit.The pistol has a raised bolt the stock slips on to then clamped on the guns stock in a notch on the bottom. The bolt is what the trigger pivots on. Now there is a question if this legal or not. I bought mine in a gun store as a pistol with the stock on. This may have been OK in 1972 when imported and not now.There are no stocks on the Uberti web site so maybe this is no longer legal. The ATF changes things all the time. I think with AR-15 lowers being capable of being rifles or pistols before building the weapon. The ATF made a ruling no changing back and forth. Lee

    This does not make it legal. If the barrel length is 16 inches or more, then it is legal. If the barrel is under 16 inches, then it is not legal, unless there is ATF paperwork for an SBR came with it, and you filled out the corresponding paper work. This is something that the ATF has not" changed all the time". The AR-15's are the same, that once built into the rifle configuration, it is, and stays a rifle. There is also a big mis conception about the Thompson Center Contender's and Encores...they are not legally swappable back and forth from pistol to rifle, and back to pistol. The ATF made a ruling on this, and only the Contender Carbine Kits, were allowed this option. There are several topics on this, you might want to search out here and read.

    Best
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  • Leebo5
    I own a gun similar to yours. It's made by Uberti,the "Cattleman" in 45 colt, made in 1972. It's like the Uberti Buntline Target model. Mine was imported by L A Dist. Inc. NYC, NY. and it came with a stock. I've seen stocks on Dixie Gun Works but I don't know if they would fit.The pistol has a raised bolt the stock slips on to then clamped on the guns stock in a notch on the bottom. The bolt is what the trigger pivots on. Now there is a question if this legal or not. I bought mine in a gun store as a pistol with the stock on. This may have been OK in 1972 when imported and not now.There are no stocks on the Uberti web site so maybe this is no longer legal. The ATF changes things all the time. I think with AR-15 lowers being capable of being rifles or pistols before building the weapon. The ATF made a ruling no changing back and forth. Lee
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  • beantownshootah
    My understanding on this is that the BATFE's current position is that you may legally convert a pistol with barrel of 16" or more to a rifle by adding a stock. However, in doing so, you are "manufacturing" a rifle, and once the gun is a rifle, it CANNOT legally be changed into a pistol again, period. It can be legally changed into a "short barreled rifle" with registration as an NFA item and paying the appropriate tax.

    So once you've made your "rifle" if you take OFF the stock again to shoot it as a pistol you're now in possession of a pistol created from a rifle. That's illegal under the gun control act of 1934, and good for 5+ years in jail and/or a 6 figure fine. Whether or not the BATFE would ever actually find out about this or even care if they did is another matter.

    **BUT**. . .If the barrel of gun is over 16" *AND* its overall length is 26" or more (measured in line with the bore), then its still legally a rifle, regardless of whether or not it has a stock.

    You'd have to actually measure the overall length of your 18" barreled revolver, but I think if its over 26" you should be allowed to put on and take off any stock to your heart's content legally (at least under FEDERAL law). If you're not already at 26", I'd imagine you're probably pretty close, so if not you might be able to get it there say by adding a small extension to the barrel, rear of the frame or grips (perhaps a stock attachment site?).

    Note also that the BATFE has ruled that folding stocks are appropriately measured with the stock OPENED, so if you were to attach a folding stock, you would still be OK with the stock on the gun and folded, even if the overall length were under 26" when folded.

    To answer the actually asked question, I don't know where to get a stock like this. Historically speaking, Colt did put out some stocks for 1873 type revolvers made of skeletonized metal, but so far as I know they are not commonly available, and I'd be a bit surprised if you could locate a domestic source for one.

    You might be able to adapt a stock intended for black powder guns to your pistol (or more precisely, adapt the gun to the stock!).

    http://www.circlekb.com/product/SHSTOCK.html

    1860-army-with-stock-2lg.jpg

    You might have some fun building your own if you're skilled, or having someone else do it for you. I think the hardest part will be devising a way to attach the stock solidly to the gun. Personally, if I were doing this, I would try to rig up something like a wire folding stock.
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  • dfletcher
    quote:Originally posted by tsr1965
    sunngunn,

    Hello, and welcome to the forums here on Gunbroker.com

    While I am sure you are talking about an SAA knockoff, is it currently registered as a handgun? I am thinking it is, since it does not meet the overall length requirement to be a rifle. If so, you can attatch a shoulder stock as long as it has a barrel over 16 inches, but once you transform it into a carbine or rifle, you can't legally transform it back.

    Best

    EDIT 1

    Leebo5,

    quote:I own a gun similar to yours. It's made by Uberti,the "Cattleman" in 45 colt, made in 1972. It's like the Uberti Buntline Target model. Mine was imported by L A Dist. Inc. NYC, NY. and it came with a stock. I've seen stocks on Dixie Gun Works but I don't know if they would fit.The pistol has a raised bolt the stock slips on to then clamped on the guns stock in a notch on the bottom. The bolt is what the trigger pivots on. Now there is a question if this legal or not. I bought mine in a gun store as a pistol with the stock on. This may have been OK in 1972 when imported and not now.There are no stocks on the Uberti web site so maybe this is no longer legal. The ATF changes things all the time. I think with AR-15 lowers being capable of being rifles or pistols before building the weapon. The ATF made a ruling no changing back and forth. Lee

    This does not make it legal. If the barrel length is 16 inches or more, then it is legal. If the barrel is under 16 inches, then it is not legal, unless there is ATF paperwork for an SBR came with it, and you filled out the corresponding paper work. This is something that the ATF has not" changed all the time". The AR-15's are the same, that once built into the rifle configuration, it is, and stays a rifle. There is also a big mis conception about the Thompson Center Contender's and Encores...they are not legally swappable back and forth from pistol to rifle, and back to pistol. The ATF made a ruling on this, and only the Contender Carbine Kits, were allowed this option. There are several topics on this, you might want to search out here and read.

    Best


    I agree with your post, the "T/C won a case" information has been often misquoted as allowing the switch but such is not the case. I would just add that ATF recently (2010) issued a letter which, in addition to those T/C kits, extends that ability to any kit that contains the parts required to assemble a legally configured long gun and a legally configured handgun off a single receiver, so long as that receiver is included in the kit - obviously an SBR is still not allowed without the stamp.

    Using an AR as an example, a kit containing a single lower receiver, a shoulder stock, a fewer than 16" upper receiver and a greater than 16" upper receiver allows the purchaser of that kit to switch back & forth between long gun and handgun. Again, the caveat is it must be purchased as a kit, from a single source, not parted together over several purchases.

    This may have an impact on the original question. If the revolver and shoulder stock was purchased as a "kit" from which a legally configured long gun and hand gun can be assembled the ATF letter may protect. If the handgun was purchased separately and a shoulder stock later, it seems the ATF letter does not protect.
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  • Leebo5
    Don't you just love how the ATF thinks? Lee
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  • Leebo5
    This brings up something I wondered about. I can buy a 1860 Army in black powder with no 4473 form. Buy a conversion cylinder to shoot 45 colt and I have a cartridge firearm. If I buy a BP pistol, add a shoulder stock , then a conversion cyl., do I need a SBR stamp? Lee
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  • beantownshootah
    quote:Originally posted by Leebo5
    This brings up something I wondered about. I can buy a 1860 Army in black powder with no 4473 form.
    Yes you can.

    quote: Buy a conversion cylinder to shoot 45 colt and I have a cartridge firearm.Yes you can do that too, though you've just "manufactured" a pistol. I believe this is legal under FEDERAL law, though it well may not be under certain STATE or local laws. Also, once manufactured your new cartridge gun won't be transferable.

    quote: If I buy a BP pistol, add a shoulder stock , then a conversion cyl., do I need a SBR stamp? Lee

    Of course you do.

    If you add a metallic cartridge cylinder to a short-barreled percussion revolving rifle, you've just "manufactured" a short barreled rifle and you'd need to register it and pay the tax, ideally BEFORE you did the conversion.

    EDIT, responding to below
    quote:So, once I've put these three items together, with the paid stamp, I can't take them apart legally, correct? Lee
    I believe that once the gun is legally registered/taxed as a short-barreled rifle, then you can legally have it in any configuration you like, either with or without stock, or in any barrel length.
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  • Leebo5
    So, once I've put these three items together, with the paid stamp, I can't take them apart legally, correct? Lee
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  • tsr1965
    quote:Originally posted by Leebo5
    So, once I've put these three items together, with the paid stamp, I can't take them apart legally, correct? Lee


    Once you have a paid stamp from the BATFE, for am SBR, then you can do anything you want to with it.

    Best
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  • dfletcher
    quote:Originally posted by Leebo5
    This brings up something I wondered about. I can buy a 1860 Army in black powder with no 4473 form. Buy a conversion cylinder to shoot 45 colt and I have a cartridge firearm. If I buy a BP pistol, add a shoulder stock , then a conversion cyl., do I need a SBR stamp? Lee


    In addition to the above answers keep in mind constructive possession applies to SBRs.

    The short version of constructive possession is that even though you may not have the shoulder stock attached the law views them as though they are assembled. Constructive possession can apply if the gun & cylinder are at your residence and the shoulder stock at a friend's residence - you still have control over the item.

    If you have a BP revolver & a shoulder stock, as soon as the centerfire cylinder hits your mailbox you are in possession of an SBR.
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  • tsr1965
    quote:Originally posted by dfletcher
    quote:Originally posted by Leebo5
    This brings up something I wondered about. I can buy a 1860 Army in black powder with no 4473 form. Buy a conversion cylinder to shoot 45 colt and I have a cartridge firearm. If I buy a BP pistol, add a shoulder stock , then a conversion cyl., do I need a SBR stamp? Lee


    In addition to the above answers keep in mind constructive possession applies to SBRs.

    The short version of constructive possession is that even though you may not have the shoulder stock attached the law views them as though they are assembled. Constructive possession can apply if the gun & cylinder are at your residence and the shoulder stock at a friend's residence - you still have control over the item.

    If you have a BP revolver & a shoulder stock, as soon as the centerfire cylinder hits your mailbox you are in possession of an SBR.


    That is effectively saying that if I have an Encore handgun in 308, and want to have a 308 rifle, and order the shoulder stock and 24 inch rifle barrel, I have an SBR, as soon as I recieve the stock. Even though I can put the rifle barrel on the frame that is registered as a handgun, and then the stock, and have a legal rifle. Even though I cannot legally transform it back to handgun mode. I don't see how that applies, unless the stock is actually in use with the short barrel. However, I do know that applies to NFA fully auto parts.


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