Info on Trail Judge Recall ?
Can anyone confirm a recall on the Rossi "Trail Judge" .410/.45 lever action? If so, what is the problem?
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Hmm. . .Rossi lists the gun here on its website:
http://www.rossiusa.com/2011newcatalog/?catalog_page=7
I note that its listed as a pure .410 gun, implying that its NOT intended to handle or cycle .45LC rounds.
It has a 12" rifled barrel.
Its hard for me to judge the legality of this gun. On one hand its a "pistol" since it has a short rifled barrel and no stock. On the other hand its ONLY chambered for a shotgun round, making it easy to argue that its a short-barreled. . .and therefore federally regulated. . . shotgun.
The same exact gun in 12 gauge, for example, would be a short barreled shotgun, no question. Does it really matter that the nominal caliber of the non-existent pistol round this gun "could" chamber is under .500"?
So rightly or wrongly, I could imagine why the BATFE might not like something like this, and might try to have it classified as an NFA "AOW" type weapon.
As I speculated in an unrelated thread, if Taurus/Rossi (or someone else) were smart, it would create its own novel pistol round that shared external cartridge dimensions with a .410 round (or better yet a fired one).
That kind of round could have a real niche. The larger case volume could let it achieve significantly better ballistics than .45LC at the same operating pressures. It should be a drop-in fit into the many popular "Judge" type .45/.410 revolvers and other guns like this one with the longer overall case length reducing "free bore" jump of bullet to barrel, improving accuracy.
Last benefit, of course is that it might serve to "legalize" guns like the Trail judge.
As a side issue, apart from limited novelty value, I can't figure out what this "trail judge" is supposed to accomplish. An ordinary .410 shotgun is pretty anemic as it is. Why would you want a lever action pistol version?
At least the "Judge" revolvers can work as bad double-action .45LC guns. That gives them some limited application for outdoor/camping/swamp use as a combination snake/defense gun.
But this "mares's leg" shotgun is even bulkier and heavier, making it harder to store, conceal, or carry, and it can't safely be operated as a repeater with one hand. (Yes, with practice these guns can be charged with one hand by flinging them around. . .not a good idea to do this with live ammo in the real world).
What's the niche of this gun supposed to be?0 -
quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
Hmm. . .Rossi lists the gun here on its website:
http://www.rossiusa.com/2011newcatalog/?catalog_page=7
I note that its listed as a pure .410 gun, implying that its NOT intended to handle or cycle .45LC rounds.
It has a 12" rifled barrel.
Its hard for me to judge the legality of this gun. On one hand its a "pistol" since it has a short rifled barrel and no stock. On the other hand its ONLY chambered for a shotgun round, making it easy to argue that its a short-barreled. . .and therefore federally regulated. . . shotgun.
It has a rifled barrel NOT smooth that is the difference. NOT the caliber (unless over 0.50")
quote:
The same exact gun in 12 gauge, for example, would be a short barreled shotgun, no question. Does it really matter that the nominal caliber of the non-existent pistol round this gun "could" chamber is under .500"?
The same exact gun built in 12 GA is an AOW not SBS since the gun was never a shotgun. IF this gun was made by cutting down a shotgun then it would be a SBS.
quote:
So rightly or wrongly, I could imagine why the BATFE might not like something like this, and might try to have it classified as an NFA "AOW" type weapon.
As I speculated in an unrelated thread, if Taurus/Rossi (or someone else) were smart, it would create its own novel pistol round that shared external cartridge dimensions with a .410 round (or better yet a fired one).
That kind of round could have a real niche. The larger case volume could let it achieve significantly better ballistics than .45LC at the same operating pressures. It should be a drop-in fit into the many popular "Judge" type .45/.410 revolvers and other guns like this one with the longer overall case length reducing "free bore" jump of bullet to barrel, improving accuracy.
Last benefit, of course is that it might serve to "legalize" guns like the Trail judge.
As a side issue, apart from limited novelty value, I can't figure out what this "trail judge" is supposed to accomplish. An ordinary .410 shotgun is pretty anemic as it is. Why would you want a lever action pistol version?
At least the "Judge" revolvers can work as bad double-action .45LC guns. That gives them some limited application for outdoor/camping/swamp use as a combination snake/defense gun.
But this "mares's leg" shotgun is even bulkier and heavier, making it harder to store, conceal, or carry, and it can't safely be operated as a repeater with one hand. (Yes, with practice these guns can be charged with one hand by flinging them around. . .not a good idea to do this with live ammo in the real world).
What's the niche of this gun supposed to be?
Those are a lot of points I agree with but don't have answers for.
But it comes down to if it is a pistol size gun with a RIFLED bore and under 0.50" and built up from a virgin receiver it IS a pistol.0 -
You're right about the AOW; I really meant "SBS" in the generic (not legal) sense. As a side issue, arguably a rifled 12 gauge pistol may fall into the category of a "destructive device":
quote:26 U.S.C. ? 5845(f). The definition reads as follows:
(1) [deleted for brevity]
(2) Any weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and
Clearly this device meets the definition of a barrelled propellant weapon with a bore greater than 0.5". If it is NOT a "shotgun" then I think it exactly meets the definition of a destructive device.
If it *IS* a "shotgun", then I think it would be be difficult to show that a cut-down looking rifled lever action 12 gauge pistol is "generally recognized for sporting purposes". EG, which "sport" do people "generally" use guns like this for? [;)]
So while historically the BATFE has allowed certain short shotguns under AOW or SBS rules, I could easily see a BATFE bean-counter calling something like our hypothetical 12 gauge mare's leg a "destructive device".
quote:But it comes down to if it is a pistol size gun with a RIFLED bore and under 0.50" and built up from a virgin receiver it IS a pistol.
That's my interpretation as well, that this gun "should" be legal, but the BATFE isn't always consistent about these things, and I don't know what its actual stated opinion on these guns is. Presumably Rossi has received a written advisory opinion clarifying this from the BATFE, but I don't know if they actually did or not.
Anyway, in a manner completely inconsistent with normal idle internet speculation, I've done a "crazy" thing and actually PICKED UP THE PHONE AND CALLED ROSSI to ask them about this. [;)][}:)]
Rossi/Braztech customer service told me that:
a. There has never been a "recall" on this product, because.
b. It has NEVER been released for sale to the public, and
c. Despite it being listed in the 2011 product catalog it will NOT be released for public sale in 2011.
I asked specifically what the holdup was, and customer service declined to answer (I don't know if its because the nice woman on the phone didn't know, or wasn't authorized to disclose it to me). I then asked explicitly if the product was on hold because of BATFE paperwork/regulation issues, and again, no good answer. I asked if they had any anticipated date of release, "No".
Bottom line (and answer to the actual question):
There was no recall on this pistol, and none of them are available to members of the public. Its unclear at this time whether or not this gun will EVER be available to the public, or if so, when.
I'm quite sure Rossi/Braztech has its reasons for the holdup, but I don't know what they are. Its quite possible that the reasons are NOT legal at all, but have to do with production, marketing, or even intrinsic gun function issues.0 -
Looks like BTS has checked into it and found the answer...I, too wondered about these types of guns when I first heard about them, and your extra steps answered my questions. Thanks! 0 -
My first thought is why not simply stamp it as 45 Colt/410 as they do with their Judge handguns and Bond does with their derringer - perhaps, give the difference in cartridge length, the gun is not capable of feeding both reliably? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by dfletcher
My first thought is why not simply stamp it as 45 Colt/410 as they do with their Judge handguns and Bond does with their derringer - perhaps, give the difference in cartridge length, the gun is not capable of feeding both reliably?
I think you just answered your own question.
As you know, lever action guns can be quite sensitive about overall cartridge length for feeding purposes, and I suspect the shorter .45LC rounds won't load or cycle right.
If the gun could run .45LC rounds it would be labelled as such. The fact that it isn't so labelled is probably because the gun won't run them.
That's *another* reason why my hypothetical wildcat .45-410 round could be good.
Anyway, again, I don't know for sure that this gun isn't in distribution because of legal reasons. . .that's just one potential reason.0 -
Gents,
Rossi Taurus was advertising a 28 Gauge revolver (a Judge handgun), as a new 2011 product. After the most recent S.H.O.T. Show, I read that the ATF had some questions about this revolver. Rossi has produced some interesting things that never made it into the United States. I, too, wondered about why the Trail Judge was not marked with two caliber designations, even though its barrel is rifled.0 -
quote:Originally posted by BigLoop22
Gents,
Rossi Taurus was advertising a 28 Gauge revolver (a Judge handgun), as a new 2011 product. After the most recent S.H.O.T. Show, I read that the ATF had some questions about this revolver. Rossi has produced some interesting things that never made it into the United States. I, too, wondered about why the Trail Judge was not marked with two caliber designations, even though its barrel is rifled.
I'd love to know what (if anything) Rossi and Taurus have on the market in Brazil that can't be legally sold in the USA. I suppose I could probably just browse their respective domestic websites in Portuguese to find out.
Again, it seems that the only purpose of the rifling on the "Trail Judge" is to stick this bizarre sawed-off lever action rifle/shotgun through a legal loophole.
On the 28 gauge "Judge", its not entirely clear to me that Taurus really intended to sell this gun to the general American public, and my guess is it didn't.
They brought it out for exhibition at the SHOT show, which is a trade show for dealers and gun industry types. As anyone who has ever been to a SHOT show can tell you, many of the new guns featured at the trade show never end up being sold to the public.
I see this exactly as the same as the "concept car" that is brought at at auto trade shows. The idea is just to create some buzz and get people talking about the car and company, not necessarily to actually sell the car itself. It works as the cool cars get internet and press coverage, end up with pictures in magazines, etc. Sometimes the company can get interesting feedback on the vehicles from different places. But very few "concept" cars actually end up in mass production.
I think the same may be true here. Did Taurus really want to market this heavy, bulky 28 gauge (ie .55 caliber) pistol to the American public, or did it just want to create a buzz?
My guess is the latter. . .which the gun did in spades! This thread, and multple others on the Gunbroker site being tangible examples. The whacko revolver created even MORE of a buzz when the BATFE waltzed over and told Taurus that it thought that a greater-than-.50 caliber shotgun-revolver was illegal without paperwork.
I suppose its *possible*, but to me it it boggles the mind that executives at an American company that markets guns to the American public wouldn't know that something like this would be illegal (or most likely considered illegal by the BATFE, which is tantamount to the same thing). Whoops. . .an incident!! Whoops. . .LOTS of free press in the gun world. [;)]
Also, as a matter of practice, pretty much the *ONLY* shells available for the 28 gauge shotgun are upland bird shells. You can't even buy buckshot or slugs for that gauge at this time, making this four pound monstrosity even that much less useful.
Whether the gun itself actually is or isn't legal is a whole separate issue (my money is on illegal. . .see above with regards to rifled 12 gauge pistol for the reasoning), but the bottom line is that I strongly doubt we're ever actually going to see a production 28 gauge revolver put out by Taurus USA.
"Trail judge" we *might* see some day. . .but I wouldn't hold my breath for it. I also certainly wouldn't buy one.
If you wanted to make this concept a bit more useful, create a top-break single, or (even better) over/under or side-by-side double .410 RIFLED shotgun pistol with a 10-12" bbl that can accept .454 Casull rounds. NOW you have something sort of interesting.0 -
Friend of mine showed me the trail judge in a magazine and today I read this. here`s the link www.downrange.tv/blog/update-on-the-rossi-trail-judge... 0
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