Optic reticule and 'click' question
While in the USMC my sniper rifle was equiped with a Leatherwood scope with the 'trajectory cam', loved that scope, not so much because of the cam system but because of the 'washington-monument' shaped post it used as an aiming point. It made me a better shooter once I learned how to use it to my advantage. Have never been able to find one except now Trijicon has the green/red/amber/ tipped posts for what I consider a bit too much money, and I really hate 'illuminated' anything, I need illumination I'll use a dang flare. And I suppose that asking for a scope with a 'post' and good 'ol 'one click equals one inch@ one-hundred yards' adjustments will be a request for fantasy land. Have never seen a scope where 1/4" clicks worked accurately through-out the adjustment range or even close to it, and other then BR shooters I just don't see the need and view it as a marketing gimmick. Have had the pleasure of having known some of the best 'position' shooters in the world and can't think of a one that would have ever wanted to use a scope with more then 1/2" clicks, as there isn't a shooter alive who can 'hold' a 1/4 inch group from any 'position'. BR maybe, position....you'll have to show me cause I ain't seen one yet...period. So any one know of a 'post' reticuled variable power (within reason, like 3x9 or 4x12 tops) with MOA clicks and non-'belled and whisteled' to death? Some of us 'ol farts just ain't gonna learn to like all the new 'fancy-shmancy-all-illuminated-tricked-out-paint-it-black-n-call-it-tactical-n-charge-double-doesn't-work-for-crap-anyway-new-age' garbage being sold and marketed just because no one has the time or inclination to really LEARN marksmanship. Sorry for the lecture....just venting....how about that scope? Any help?
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norgexxx,
I don't know of any maker right now who offers a scope as you would want it, all for 49.95. How ever, as you stated there is Trijicon with their tritium illuminated chevron type reticle(hence the proper spelling). There are several other's who offer a German #4, post and crosshair, and several high end that offer a similar reticle of what you like. However, todays golden standard is the 1/4 MOA clicks for adjustment turrets, with some coming in at 1/8 MOA, and 1/10th Mil. The higher end ones like NightForce, have extreme repeatability.
You might be able to find one of your old favorates, just like the one you used, on the auction side.
Best0 -
Swarowski has some interesting crosshair choices
http://www.swarovskioptik.us/en_us/products/reticle-overview0 -
Standard "clicks" on scopes is 1/4 MOA. The better ones are repeatable (and the really better ones offer finer gradations). If that's too few for you, how about just "clicking" four times?
On the "washington monument" reticle you mentioned, one relatively common variation still popular in Europe is called a "german post" and a couple of scope makers offer it. For example, here's Leupolds:
Leupold will put any reticle they offer in one of their scopes for about $150. You could call their customer service and ask them if they offer anything in a simple post.
If you REALLY want to to "old school" the same type of reticle comes in the Mosin-nagant PU scopes!
As you mentioned, Trijicon has a modern post-only version.
EDIT:
Leatherwood scopes is still doing business under Hi-Lux/Leatherwood, and a quick check of page 16 of their product catalog indicates that they too offer a similar post to the German #1 from Leupold above.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=218393496
Unfortunately, they don't list a simple/straight post, but that doesn't mean they don't have one or couldn't make one up for you custom.
As Rufe said, if there is a particular scope that you love(d) you may well be able to locate that exact model. Right now there are a few Leatherwood scopes available on the auction site right here.0 -
Thank-you gents,
I don't expect it for $49.95, but only a nimrod would pay a thousand bucks for unwanted bells 'n whistles, but thanks for the spelling lesson. Gold standard or not I would just like a scope with MOA or .5 MOA adjustments, and I know I'm not alone in this desire. Too many scopes claim "the gold standard" and fail miserably, I know, I've owned a few and it makes me sick thinking about how much $ I basically threw away for unreliable crap that carried "brand-name" recognition and so-called "life-time warranty", but it didn't 'really cover the 1/4" click part. But you're also correct about checking-out some auctions for the old style Leatherwood. I talked to the good Capt. some years back (when they replaced one of thier newer scopes that just fell apart internally with a newer model at no charge and I am happy with the two that I have, for what I use them for) and he told me then that they would probably never have that post reticle again. Dang, but the old ones were sure enuff tough as hell, only scope I ever saw in 13yrs of service that was 'Marine-proof'. But Carlos never took a hankering to it so that was basically a procurement death-sentence if it didn't pass muster with him and Capt. Cuddy. The man was seldom wrong, but I think the scope could have served the Marine Corps well, as long as you stuck to one specific 'load' because of the cam, which was also its short-coming. While I like the post, the old Leatherwoods that come up for auction (if they are like the one I had) have a cam in them that will only work with LC 168gr Match ammo, and back then it didn't have a boat-tail bullet, trying to duplicate that load could take some patience and time.
The 'German#1' I could live with, and thanks for letting me know about the fact that some outfits will install a reticle (now I can spell like I is ed-u-a-cated..LOL) that is requested...I didn't know that was even possible on Leupolds, I have three on other high-power rifles and should have done some homework I guess, but I gave up on Leatherwood and now I guess I'll have to look at page 16 after all...Thank-you. I have nothing against Trijicon, my grandson carried one in Iraq for a year and swears by them, and I've picked a couple up and looked through them and yes they do have a high degree of that 'spiffy-ness factor' about them...but not a thousand dollars spiffy, maybe 6-7 hundred tops, until they improve their 'durability factor' they are to flimsy for me, and grandson says that is their shortcoming also, but he thinks it worth the expense to keep replacing them when your nuts are on the line....may have a point...but I'm not planning on using mine in fire-fights...I hope.
Guess one of the reasons I like it (post) so much is that the really fine crosshairs one needs for long-range work are so difficult to find in 10x or under, only the really high-power (20X and up)BR type scopes seem to have those ultra fine cross hairs. There used to be a 'black-widow' spider 'farm' at Quantico (or was it Ft. Meyers?) in the old days which was the only gov't sanctioned captive black-widows in existence (captive Black-Widows is FED felony as poison to easy to reduce to micro-dose lethality) and scope makers would pay the government for the harvested web to make cross-hairs with, as it was something like 10 times stronger then steel, oz. for oz. 'Ol man Unertel(sp?) didn't make a scope with anything else for years I believe until the mid 70s, or so I was told. And many of the higher grade Redfields had them also. The 'old days'....well..
Thank-you all gents for the time and effort you have expended to help me out, maybe someday I can return the favor. God Bless.0 -
Leupold scopes with M3 adjustments have 1 MOA clicks in elevation, 1/2 MOA in windage. I think this done so as to cover a wide range of adjustment in one turn of the elevation.
http://swfa.com/Leupold-10x40-Mark-4-LRT-30mm-Riflescope-P99.aspx
And their custom shop will do post and German reticles.0 -
May I ask what type of rifle&caliber do you plan on scoping? 0 -
Thank-you master Hawk, as a Leupold is looking to be a most reasonable option and my past experience with them has been positive...their scopes have even endured a bit more abuse then I had ever dreamed of subjecting them too, and have stood up well.
Mr Jaegermister you ask a reasonable question as one, in most cases, has rifle in hand before looking for a scope. I have a medium heavy barreled 7mm Rem Mag and a .308 Rem700 VTR that are both MOA rifles to 'way-out-there', don't really know how far out there as I run out of property after 1100yds and do not have permissions to impact into the neighbors property. Both rifles have high-end Leatherwood scopes of which I am most satisfied with though I would think sharpness of focus could be a bit better, but the humid air during mid-west summers can distort and am never sure if it is the scope or humidity/mirage that is the culprit. That said I am looking at re-barreling a Rem 722 (the action of which I consider superior in strength and smoothness to the best 700 out there) that was my fathers in the old .244 Rem. Am still looking/considering caliber options, but something with long-range accuracy will be chosen. Have several 03 Springfields in excellent condition, one less excellent then the others, which may be be sporterizedre-barreled/recalibered, and a 8mm Mauser that while in very good condition is not particularly valuable, but an action that could be put to better use. There is also the possiblity of re-scoping the VTR (but the 7mm has a custom shim in the mount to give the scope enough adjustment 'out-there' so no change there I guess). So maybe I'm putting the horse before the cart a bit you might think, but...I have on occasion let optical options help determine caliber of rifle. Call me nuts, you won't be the first....but in my defense I do own a score+ of high-power rifles and they are all 'shooters' whose accuracy has been duly noted by game and critters (and a few braggerts whose own mouths forced them into placing money on 'dollar a point' matches when I called them out) here in the mid-west. Don't know what to make of the 'short & fat' new cartridges as I haven't heard of them 'winning' much of note, other then the PPCs dominating the short and mid-range BR matches, I don't think the fatties have done much past 300 yds that make them a noteworthy consideration. I must admit that even the 7mm Rem Mag is no real pleasure to shoot anymore after a box of shells and it has never killed anything any deader the my .280 Rem did, and the .280 did so with a lot less 'fanfare' in the recoil and report department. The post reticle lends itself well to targets that may be moving at a steady pace and a caliber that has a significant 'dead-center' range, in other words a reasonably flat-shooter with good terminal performance at less then optimum velocities (I realize projectile choice plays a huge role there, but let us assume the well-placed shot with appropriate projectile as the 'given' in this discussion). So now I have again rambled on as I lack the ability for concise explanation of thought or thought process, and have let myself be led into changing (quite willingly I might add) the topic of the thread to choice of a 'new' caliber rifle. I have in all honsesty considered building one of the aforementioned choices into a good 30-06 rifle, as I think it is still the most versitile of calibers out there and at nearly 60yrs of age, it still doesn't threaten to kick my butt after 50-100 rounds at the range, although getting OUT of a good sitting position is getting to be a problem!!!LOL) If anyone is still taking an interest in the thread and wishes to opine as to what their choice of a new big-game caliber rifle would be on a mauser/springfield or 722 action (which is the same as a 700 for all practical purposes...just better...period) I would be delighted to entertain all reasonable arguments. For the sake of discussion lets say that 'big-game' means deer/caribou and possibly moose, yet can be 'recreationally/competitively' fired out to 1000yds with a resonable degree of accuracy with moderate wind Not looking for some $15,000 Camp Perry rifle) and still be called a 'sporting rifle'. Take it away gents, I'm all ears.0 -
On your 722 I may be of help. I have unertl target scope with the blocks for 722. The front block fits the dovetail in 722 barrel and the back base is drilled for the standard factory rear scope base. External adjustments , trcil spring etc. Email me for pics if interested. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by norgexxx
I have nothing against Trijicon, my grandson carried one in Iraq for a year and swears by them, and I've picked a couple up and looked through them and yes they do have a high degree of that 'spiffy-ness factor' about them...but not a thousand dollars spiffy, maybe 6-7 hundred tops,
Well, I think your wish is granted, because that's how much the 3-9x Trijicon T20 accupoint with the amber triangle reticles cost!
See here for 15+ vendors that have them under $700:
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=trijicon+tr20+triangle&cid=18410716883306413805&os=sellers#scoring=tp
This place has em on sale for $620:
http://www.red-dot-scopes.com/trijicon-accupoint-3-9x40-riflescopes.html
I can't speak to the quality of the seller, but I'd bet if the product were no good, Trijicon would take care of you. If you buy it on your credit card, they'd also take care of you if the vendor gave you trouble.
If you prefer a 2.5-10x (and I would. . .why not?), the TR22 version in 2.5-10x runs about another $60 or so.0 -
Thank-you gentlemen, business may be conducted. Glad people like you are around who have some answers and ideas to share...again thank-you. 0
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