FORUM HELP NEEDED : Mauser - Broomhandle - 8.15mm
Mauser - `Broomhandle' - C96 Pistol - Caliber 8.15mm (Experimental)
Pistol - Variation 1
Since the early 1960s, there has been much discussion re the C96 - 8.15mm pistol . A small number of these pistols have been verified and exist within the Model 1930, 8xxxxx to 9xxxxx serial range. They are pictured, described and well documented in the classic reference books for the C96 pistol, including `System Mauser' by Breatherd and Schroeder, `The Mauser Self-Loading Pistol' by Belford and Dunlap, and `The Broomhandle Mauser Pistol 1896-1936' by Erickson and Pate. The method of verification has been to make an accurate casting of the chamber which is then compared to the original DWM factory case information and similarly for the bore which is compared to the original DWM factory bullet information. Chamber cast comparison with original DWM factory case information is mentioned in `System Mauser' on page 150.
Cartridge
The DWM 580 case and the DWM 501 bullet (hollow base)/502 bullet (flat and straight base) are illustrated, described and well documented in DWM Case Drawings Volume 1 (2nd Edition), DWM Case Drawings Volume 2 and DWM Bullet Drawings Volume 3 all taken from original DWM source material and published by GIG Concepts Inc, and the Handbuch der Pistolen und Revolver Patronen by Brandt.
There are still a few people, who inexplicably, continue to deny the existence of the C96 - 8.15mm pistol.
Pistol - Variation 2
There is another variation of the C96 - 8.15mm pistol. These pistols are currently being verified and exist within the 2xxxxx to 4xxxxx serial range. These pistols are not pictured, described or well documented in any of the classic reference books. On 20 December 1999, in London, the very prestigious auction house, Cristie's auctioned a verified C96 - 8.15mm pistol, serial number 275989. The details are available on the Cristie's website.
The existence of this variation of C96 - 8.15mm pistol is known as the direct result of internet information exchanges between collectors regarding C96 pistols that are not 7.63mm, not 9mm and not in the 8xxxxx to 9xxxxx serial range. These pistols are all factory original, all with matching numbered parts. They have each been examined closely by experts who state that they have been re-bored from 7.63mm to 8.15mm at the factory, by Mauser.
Forum Help Needed
Several collectors in Europe and the USA are currently in the process of searching for other collectors that have C96 - 8.15mm pistols, especially within the 2xxxxx to 4xxxxx serial range.
We are going to make several accurate Cerrosafe castings of the chamber and bore, then have well known pistol/ cartridge experts, in Europe and in the USA, rigorously compare the castings to the original DWM factory specifications for the case and the bullet. Several of us have already shared key casting measurements and find them to be `identical' to each other and to the original DWM factory data. The word `identical' is used here to mean - very close.
If you have such a C96 pistol and are interested in participating with us, then please respond to this posting. We would like to find as many C96 - 8.15mm pistol owners as possible.
Thanks for your interest.
Pistol - Variation 1
Since the early 1960s, there has been much discussion re the C96 - 8.15mm pistol . A small number of these pistols have been verified and exist within the Model 1930, 8xxxxx to 9xxxxx serial range. They are pictured, described and well documented in the classic reference books for the C96 pistol, including `System Mauser' by Breatherd and Schroeder, `The Mauser Self-Loading Pistol' by Belford and Dunlap, and `The Broomhandle Mauser Pistol 1896-1936' by Erickson and Pate. The method of verification has been to make an accurate casting of the chamber which is then compared to the original DWM factory case information and similarly for the bore which is compared to the original DWM factory bullet information. Chamber cast comparison with original DWM factory case information is mentioned in `System Mauser' on page 150.
Cartridge
The DWM 580 case and the DWM 501 bullet (hollow base)/502 bullet (flat and straight base) are illustrated, described and well documented in DWM Case Drawings Volume 1 (2nd Edition), DWM Case Drawings Volume 2 and DWM Bullet Drawings Volume 3 all taken from original DWM source material and published by GIG Concepts Inc, and the Handbuch der Pistolen und Revolver Patronen by Brandt.
There are still a few people, who inexplicably, continue to deny the existence of the C96 - 8.15mm pistol.
Pistol - Variation 2
There is another variation of the C96 - 8.15mm pistol. These pistols are currently being verified and exist within the 2xxxxx to 4xxxxx serial range. These pistols are not pictured, described or well documented in any of the classic reference books. On 20 December 1999, in London, the very prestigious auction house, Cristie's auctioned a verified C96 - 8.15mm pistol, serial number 275989. The details are available on the Cristie's website.
The existence of this variation of C96 - 8.15mm pistol is known as the direct result of internet information exchanges between collectors regarding C96 pistols that are not 7.63mm, not 9mm and not in the 8xxxxx to 9xxxxx serial range. These pistols are all factory original, all with matching numbered parts. They have each been examined closely by experts who state that they have been re-bored from 7.63mm to 8.15mm at the factory, by Mauser.
Forum Help Needed
Several collectors in Europe and the USA are currently in the process of searching for other collectors that have C96 - 8.15mm pistols, especially within the 2xxxxx to 4xxxxx serial range.
We are going to make several accurate Cerrosafe castings of the chamber and bore, then have well known pistol/ cartridge experts, in Europe and in the USA, rigorously compare the castings to the original DWM factory specifications for the case and the bullet. Several of us have already shared key casting measurements and find them to be `identical' to each other and to the original DWM factory data. The word `identical' is used here to mean - very close.
If you have such a C96 pistol and are interested in participating with us, then please respond to this posting. We would like to find as many C96 - 8.15mm pistol owners as possible.
Thanks for your interest.
0
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quote:"If you have such a C96 pistol and are interested in participating with us, then please respond to this posting. We would like to find as many C96 - 8.15mm pistol owners as possible"
Don't you have enough cerrosafe castings to make a determination?
Just what are your intentions? Are you starting a database to make up a new forum on these guns? What's the gig?
Frankly, I'm dubious. Joe
EDIT
You said in your post further down the string "What's in it for us is simply the satisfaction of correctly updating/ enhancing one portion of the history of this pistol, so others can understand more about them tomorrow than yesterday"
I'll check barrel markings. The markings on 9mm barrels are 8.82mm. Sounds suspiciously like '8.82' is the land dimension. What you are looking for..is it the land dimension (as marked on barrels?) If so, the cartridges, once found, may not be marked as '8.15', and may not mic-out to be at 8.15.
Also, you refer to 'US' in your replies. Just who is/are 'US'? Do you have any research published out there in cyberland? Where will you publish these (and I assume prior) findings? And where? Thanks, Joe0 -
Hi Joe ... Thanks for your response ...
There are absolutely no malintentions here what-so-ever ... So far, we have 'less than a handful' of people that have these particular C96 - 8.15mm pistols ... Each of the current participants has had their pistol examined individually (without Cerrosafe casting) by one or more 'experts' and has been told that they will not acknowledge the existence of this C96 - 8.15mm variation based upon one such pistol ...
The 'experts' are very conservative guys, as they should be ... Well, based upon our e-mail exchanges, we don't know how many different pistols (with Cerrosafe castings) it will take to breakdown this reluctance make a definitive statement re this variation ... So, we are trying to bring more such pistols into the picture ... Please bear in mind, if we can reach a grand total of six, then we would be thrilled ... These are extremely rare/ scarce pistols ... That doesn't mean that they are worth a lot of $$$ ...
So, in conclusion, our goal is to go from 'less than a handful' to 'more than a handful', provide Cerrosafe castings, and look to the 'experts' to make a positive/ definitive statement ...
There are three gentlemen (real 'experts'), in Germany, that published a three volume complete history of the Mauser C96 pistol, several years ago ... Fantastic details and outstanding photographs ... The quality of the pistols shown is such that they are 'museum-pieces' ... Not one word, not one photograph of any C96 - 8.15mm pistol ... When asked about this the authors stated that 'no C96 - 8.15mm ever existed'!!! ... How to convince these 'experts' of a second variation, when they simply will not acknowledge any C96 - 8.15mm pistol ever existed ... They represent the most difficult 'experts' we face ... We may never make it with this particular group ...
Thanks for your interest ... If you want to participate with us as we move forward, please advise ... You could provide some savy insights that prove helpful ...
All the best ...
Marty
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I am new to this and hope that the editing function does what I want ... ??? ...
In response to your latest questions ... If you, or anyone else,
provide me with your e-mail address, then I will respond with an attachment that gives all of the characteristics/ dimensions of the 8.15mm cartridge ... None of which have ever been located ...
When I use the word 'us' or 'we', I mean the few people that are currently known to have the C96 - 8.15mm pistols in the 2xxxxx to 4xxxxx range ...
I or We have not published anything, anywhere except for this posting which I placed on several gun related boards ... Hopefully, a few more of these early serial 8.15mm pistols will be located ... Assuming that the Cerrosafe castings 'match' the DWM 8.15mm cartridge dimensions, then we have something worthwhile to say ...
Again assuming a positive outcome, I or We have no idea where to 'publish' this information ... Most likely, we will 'publish' this information on this and other similar forums ... Any/ all suggestions would be welcome from the members of this forum ...
Our next steps are to (1) determine if one or more new owners are located ... (2) exchange our respective Cerrosafe castings ... (3) determine which 'experts' (one European + one American) we wish to work with ... and lastly, (4) let these 'experts' do their job and document the results on their letterhead ...
Thanks again for your interest ... If you have further comments/ suggestions/ questions please advise ...
Marty0 -
It seems to me that you are going to a great deal of trouble to try to prove something to a small group of elitist German "gun experts" who have a vested interest in your not proving a thing.
According to your ATE Forum posts (above), they have written an extensive treatise on the Mauser pistols, leaving out your darling, the 8.15mm caliber version of the pistol, claiming it does not exist.
Now, for them to acknowledge that they missed something in their "definitive work" would be discrediting to them and would embarass them. So, knowing Germans (Entschuldigen Sie meine Herren!), these guys aren't interested in being proven to be less than thorough in their work. In other words, your work almost certainly would be falling on deaf ears. "There are still a few people, who inexplicably, continue to deny the existence of the C96 - 8.15mm pistol." Well, of course they have!
Further, your taking on this work does not make you experts and I fail to fathom why you are doing this. What is your point? What is in it for you? Did these Germans' arrogance and dismissal of your efforts upset you to the point where this has become a quest to prove them wrong? The cost of publicizing the existance of a few variations of an obscure, experimental oddball caliber version of the Mauser pistol in order to make these guys admit that they overlooked something in their work is simply not worth it. And, that is the only way you will get any movement on their part, I think.
This effort, as you have described it, simply does not make sense to me. Perhaps, you have some other agenda, which you have not shared here? What other reason(s) do you have for pursuing something like this, investing time, effort and expense and soliciting the assistance of others' time and effort? It has to make logical sense to get anyone to play with you and right now this does not.
Get hold of the National Rifle Association's mouthpiece, The American Rifleman and see if you can drum up some interest on their part. Get referal to the NRA museum. If you have gone to any effort at all on your project, you should have already done this anyway.
EDIT--EDIT--EDIT
"You may not be into this type of investigation; however, we are ... All the best ...Marty"
Well then, that's good enough for me! By the way, did you try getting hold of the NRA and the NRA National Firearms Museum in Fairfax, Virginia for some help on this project?
http://www.nramuseum.com/
Best regards, Wolf.0 -
Hi Wolf ... Thanks for your reply ...
The best response that I can give you re why we are doing this is simply to expand the knowledge and understanding of the history and development of the C-96 pistol ... The trials using the 8.15mm cartridge occurred twice, not once ... Quite a few years apart ... Likely, one time before WWI and then again after WWI (driven by restrictions in The Treaty of Versailles) ...
No one in our small group cares the slightest about getting the 'German experts' to admit/ change anything ... We know they never will ... No one in our small group believes that we are C96 - 8.15mm experts, far from it ...
No one inside or outside our group ever learns much about this aspect of C96 testing and development ... Because, the history of the pistol is incomplete and is missing this information ...
What's in it for us is simply the satisfaction of correctly updating/ enhancing one portion of the history of this pistol, so others can understand more about them tomorrow than yesterday ... That's it ...
You may not be into this type of investigation; however, we are ...
All the best ...
Marty0
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