rebarreling a mini mauser 7.62x39
I would like to rebarrel my interarms mini mauser to a better performing cartridge than the 7.62x39. What all is available that does not require boltface modification? 20 ppc, 22 ppc, 6mm PPC, 6mmAR, 6mm AR Turbo 40, 6.5 grendel...... any others?? I like the idea of the turbo 40, but not sure if I can find a gunsmith that rebarrels bolt actions for a predominatley AR based round... thoughts???
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IMHO, your just wasting your time and money. Considering what a competent gunsmith is going to charge you for the work and replacement barrel.
The Interarms mini-Mausers have been off the market for years now, and would command a descent price on the used market.
Use the money you get for it, to buy the rifle of your dreams.0 -
I'll also agree with selling the rifle and buying what you want. There are many shooters who have Ar's, Ak's and SKS's that would love a bolt action that is chambered in the same cartridge.
EDIT
quote:1. Not interested in selling my rifle
2. Money not an issue
3. Love custom rifles that are unlike any other - this includes wildcats that require case forming and handloading
4. Not looking for your opinion on what I should do with my money
5. using this on coyotes and prairie dogs
If you had this rifle, didn't want to sell it, money was not an issue, and you were going to shoot yotes and dogs, did not want to change the bolt face, what caliber would you choose?
OK, Thank you for clarifying, it makes our responses much easier. With this new information in mind I would go with the 6mm PPC. Ever since Dr. Palmisano and Mr. Pindell developed the PPC back in '75 it has been the darling of the short range benchrest crowd. Although many cartridges have tried to move upon it's success, nothing has ever been able to unseat it's superiority. The 6mm PPC is very forgiving in it's loading (as compared to the 22 PPC) along with having a fabulous selection of both match grade and varmint grade bullets. Performance wise the 6mm PPC is not that far off of the 6mmBR, however the BR is better suited to working with heaver bullets, but that fact is not necessary as you are primary going to be shooting varmints.
The only other cartridge I would consider to build on this package would be to blow the neck of the 6mm PPC case out to 7mm and run a 40 to 45 degree shoulder. This would not be an improvement on the performance of the 6mm PPC, it would strictly be for the satisfaction of doing something that no one else has done before, a true wildcat.0 -
Bolt face isn't the issue. There are lots of calibers with that bolt face. The issue is the length of the ejection port verses the length of the cartridge and magazine. Figure the cost of a match barrel from one of the good makers at 300.00 and gunsmith work at 150.00 and up depending on what you need. 0 -
danzander,
This is not an attempt to mean or snappish but this has to be stated.
With all due respect for these opinions and I want emphasize 'opinions' since these statements are not based on business experience building or working with simple re-barreling of common rifles.
These same opinions always seem to follow when a member asks about re-barreling a rifle or, God forbid, re-boring an existing rifle barrel. The responders have no experience making barrels, threading tenons or cutting chambers. They have never been in the business of gunsmithing, barrel making or creating true custom rifles but their responses condemn any idea of putting a new barrel with a different chamber on an existing action.
Folks, this barreling process is done every day by thousands of gunsmiths across the country and around the world. Outside of muzzle brakes, it's THE NUMBER ONE most requested work being done by gunsmiths. Change the barrel and cut a new chamber, please. There is no magic to the process, it's simple straight forward gunsmithing.
None of this is opinion since the facts as backed up by many years of experience in all facets of the custom gunmaking industry. This is the result of 7 days a week, building, shooting competitions or testing for all of those years. So please, when I tell you that re-barreling is simple and common, take my word for this. If the man wants to re-barrel his Mini-Mauser, that's his privilege, There's nothing wrong or terrible about it. This is what he wants. The same concept applies to cars, trucks, houses or any other commodity that can be modified into another form. If that's what the client wants, that's what he gets.
Now, there is nothing wrong with the bolt face, port length or magazine since these actions and magazines were designed to handle the x39 cartridges as well as the .223 Remington and the .22-250 Remington. This means that the overall length for the magazine will be curtailed to 2.250" for clearance.
The question needing to be answered is:
What uses are you anticipating for this rifle?
Any of the cartridges named will work as far as accuracy is concerned but a couple will require some in-depth understanding of reloading and case conversions.
I have made several of the Mini-Mausers into fine varmint rifles by using the .22 PPC chamber. I don't advocate super long barrels like the creator of the AR and AR turbo does. These actions look better when the barrel are reduced to something in the neighborhood of 22" in front of the action. When loaded with the 75 gr. AMAX or Berger VLD over appropriate powders, you can achieve 2900+ fps at nominal pressures such as the 6.5 Creedmoor operates under. Yet it's a pretty handy rifle for hunting coyotes, jack rabbits or the ubiquitous prairie dog.
The 6's are o.k. but you lose about 100-150 fps in velocity as you move up in weight for the higher performance bullets.
Most gunsmiths will chamber bolt action rifles for so-call 'AR' cartridges just like some many AR gunsmiths will use bolt action cartridges for their AR platforms. It's not a big deal.
Ask when you have more questions or narrow down the uses. I have to get back to work...
Best.0 -
Interesting nononsence but considering that this IS what I do for work I am kind of wondering what the pontification was about. Brevity is a lost art. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by SP45
Interesting nononsence but considering that this IS what I do for work I am kind of wondering what the pontification was about. Brevity is a lost art.
Guess so; so I'm paring down what I wrote earlier.
Nobody is saying this CAN'T be done, or even done well.
Of course if you have the cash and want someone to rebarrel/rechamber (refinish, decorate, restock, etc) your gun, there will someone on the other end pleased to take your money and do the work.
There are all kinds of rounds a Zastava 7.62x39 bolt gun could be rechambered in, and yes that includes the AR-15 platform rounds if you really wanted to. (Why you would want to, and whether or not if you do you really ought to be starting with this particular platform, being totally different issues).
The question (if there is one) is whether or not its worth doing it.
With no sense of irony intended, if you MUST have a 6mm PPC mini-mauser, and don't mind spending a couple hundred bucks to create a semi-custom gun with potentially limited resale value and attractiveness, then by all means, go for it.
The cheaper/easier thing to do is just to get the gun you want already in the configuration you like. But that doesn't necessarily mean its the most "fun" thing to do!
Back on the original question, what do you mean by "better performing cartridge"?
First figure out exactly what sort of performance you're looking for, then you can narrow down the list of potential cartridge conversions to ones that fit your needs (including budget). If you don't know exactly what you want, you're going to have an awfully hard time getting it!
EDIT:
Nononsense:
To be clear, the posters specific question was which about which rounds you could convert a 7.62x39 bolt rifle into without changing the bolt face. To far as I can tell, nobody has actually answered it explicitly.
So to answer, yes, the various PPCs (6.8, .20 and .22) are based on the 7.62x39 cartridge and use the exact same .378" rim. Any of these should be a relatively straightforward conversion.
Also, the 6.5 Grendel and the various "AR" cartridges based on it, including the 224 AR, 6mm AR and 6mm AR 40 "turbo" also share the same rim. There are a whole slew of other more obscure proprietary or wildcat cartridges that are basically variants of the 6.5 that do too: .30 Walker, .264 Les Baer AR, etc, etc.
Note the irony here, that the super-accurate so called "AR" cartridges are ultimately based on the 7.62x39 case most commonly associated with highly inaccurate Kalashniknov rifles! This also addresses your question about using so-called "AR" rounds in a 7.62x39 rifle: Yes, they were designed to run in AR rifles, but fundamentally it should be no different to rechamber a bolt action rifle into one of these than any other round.
So, assuming you can locate the appropriate barrel and reamer then any of these "can" be done. Whether or not you "should" do the conversion is a different issue.
For Nononsense, several posters including myself were the ones raising the question of cost-effectiveness. But ultimately, we're all saying the same thing, namely that its going to run at least a few hundred bucks in parts and labor to get this done right. Whether or not its worth that investment is ultimately up to the original poster to decide for himself.0 -
danzander,
I suggest giving us a little more information and then moving on with the project as I think the potential is high for great success.
Excuse the digression.
Yes folks, it's a little long. If this isn't suitable to you skip reading the rest of this.
Best.
SP45,
I don't write many posts anymore due to schedules but those that I do write, I prefer to be more than adequate as an answer. If the length of my posts bothers you, don't read them.
This little diatribe was not aimed at you so you're excused. While brevity can be an alternative it occasionally misses the mark and gets misconstrued by folks. So the longer road can be the appropriate method necessary to prevent more wasted words. unfortunately, here that won't be the case.
The pontification is raised against the constant machinations of the folks who suggest that re-barreling is never worthwhile nor advisable. Supposedly, this puts a firearm into the custom category and there is no market for such. Well, that simply isn't true, they just aren't aware of it.
Best.
beantownshootah,
"The question (if there is one) is whether or not its worth doing it."
That question is not in the original post. You've chosen it as your point while it is missing from the original intent. Re-barreling a firearm is not always about resale value or getting your money back on the original investment. Rather, is satisfies a need or desire to have something different built on an existing firearm.
I answered his questions and posed the same question for clarification of his term 'better performing'.
danzander asks about better performing cartridges and what's available without modifying the bolt face. Then he hesitates over thinking that gunsmiths would have a problem creating a bolt action for these cartridges.
Gunsmiths will usually perform tasks which are safe and meet the expectations of the client. Otherwise they attempt to change the concept and go in a potentially better direction. Using the PPC based cartridges in a bolt action is as simple as could be so finding a gunsmith shouldn't be a problem. If it is, he can ask for suggestions and he will get quite a selection, I'm sure. The 'better performing' portion is a given with the list he writes, so long as the gunsmith does his job properly with good components. The rest will be up to danzander since reloading will be a major factor involved in his choices.
Best.0 -
1. Not interested in selling my rifle
2. Money not an issue
3. Love custom rifles that are unlike any other - this includes wildcats that require case forming and handloading
4. Not looking for your opinion on what I should do with my money
5. using this on coyotes and prairie dogs
If you had this rifle, didn't want to sell it, money was not an issue, and you were going to shoot yotes and dogs, did not want to change the bolt face, what caliber would you choose?0 -
quote:The pontification is raised against the constant machinations of the folks who suggest that re-barreling is never worthwhile nor advisable. Supposedly, this puts a firearm into the custom category and there is no market for such. Well, that simply isn't true, they just aren't aware of it.
"Machinations"? [;)]
With due respect, nobody said that rebarreling/rechambering couldn't ever be worthwhile. Again, its just a question of what you want to accomplish in doing it and why. This poster says he wants something unique, and all by itself that's certainly a good reason to do it.
Maybe this is semantics, but I'd say that pretty much ANY bolt-action rifle in something like 6mm AR 40 turbo is a "custom" gun.
Of course there is a market for custom guns, even ones in relatively obscure calibers. You can always find someone who will buy it. . .it just comes down to price. That said, I don't think its a stretch to say that the potential market for something like a rebarreled mini-Mauser in 6mm AR 40 turbo isn't going to be all that large.
Its the same with pretty much any other unusual or wildcat caliber. Its not that nobody will ever want to buy a gun like that, its that the number of potential buyers isn't going to be nearly so great as for a similar gun where you can actually buy ammo in the gunstore for it!
Unless the custom gun in question has an exceptional provenance, you should probably expect to take a loss should you want to sell it. How much of a loss depends on the caliber and gun in question, quality of the build, and of course on how much you spent to build it to begin with.
Of course if resale isn't a concern, then this isn't a concern either.
quote:Originally posted by danzander
1. Not interested in selling my rifle
2. Money not an issue
3. Love custom rifles that are unlike any other - this includes wildcats that require case forming and handloading
4. Not looking for your opinion on what I should do with my money
5. using this on coyotes and prairie dogs
If you had this rifle, didn't want to sell it, money was not an issue, and you were going to shoot yotes and dogs, did not want to change the bolt face, what caliber would you choose?
OK, great.
Now you're asking the right question,.
For that purpose, I'd personally go with the .22 PPC, and I think you really could end up with something good there.
Second choice would be the 6mm PPC, but a little bit of this is going to depend on what distances you're expecting to be shooting at.
Either way, the conversion ought to be relatively straightforward.
I'm not sure how much you'd really gain by going to one of the specialty AR-type rounds.
That might make sense if you were already reloading for one of them and/or wanted to share rounds between an AR gun and your bolt-action.0 -
danzander,
1. Not interested in selling my rifle
2. Money not an issue
3. Love custom rifles that are unlike any other - this includes wildcats that require case forming and handloading
4. Not looking for your opinion on what I should do with my money
5. using this on coyotes and prairie dogs
If you had this rifle, didn't want to sell it, money was not an issue, and you were going to shoot yotes and dogs, did not want to change the bolt face, what caliber would you choose?
From my first post on this topic:
quote:Any of the cartridges named will work as far as accuracy is concerned but a couple will require some in-depth understanding of reloading and case conversions.
I have made several of the Mini-Mausers into fine varmint rifles by using the .22 PPC chamber. I don't advocate super long barrels like the creator of the AR and AR turbo does. These actions look better when the barrel are reduced to something in the neighborhood of 22" in front of the action. When loaded with the 75 gr. AMAX or Berger VLD over appropriate powders, you can achieve 2900+ fps at nominal pressures such as the 6.5 Creedmoor operates under. Yet it's a pretty handy rifle for hunting coyotes, jack rabbits or the ubiquitous prairie dog.
The 6's are o.k. but you lose about 100-150 fps in velocity as you move up in weight for the higher performance bullets.
The .22 PPC is superb for any of the target you specified. I've used this cartridge loaded with mid-range weights (50 gr. VMAX) and the heavier 75 AMAX or Bergers as stated with excellent performance. From a 22" barrel you can expect to get 3500 fps approximately from the 50 gr. VMAX BT using Re-10X, Accurate 2015 or even V V N-130.
The 75 gr. AMAX will get you up to about 2950 fps with Re-15 or Accurate 2495 from the same 22" barrel. Be sure to decide if you want to shoot the heavier bullets ahead of time as the twist rate will need to be a pinch faster.
Shooting both bullets in the field will get you to 300 yards with the 75 gr. AMAX and about a 10" drop from the 100 yard zero. The 50 gr. VMAX will get you to approximately 325 yards with the same 10" drop from the same zero. The only difference is the remaining energy at target but with prairie dogs there is little to worry about as they are fragile. The adults are about a 10" target...
For any of the above comments (not data) you could substitute the .224 AR cartridge.
Beyond the 22 PPC, I suppose that the 6mmAR Turbo would be my only other choice. I see no reason for the 40 degree Ackley shoulder here.
Best.0 -
beantownshootah,
quote:So to answer, yes, the various PPCs (6.8, .20 and .22) are based on the 7.62x39 cartridge and use the exact same .378" rim. Any of these should be a relatively straightforward conversion.
The rim for the 7.62x39 and the PPC derivations have a 0.443" or 0.445" rim diameter depending on which drawings you reference. Generally we use the 0.445 diameter as a standard.
The PPC cartridges were originally developed for match competition shooting for point blank benchrest (100, 200 yards) in bolt action rifles. When they became AR cartridges I can't recall. The Grendel was developed for the AR (and is a proprietary cartridge) as were the 224 AR and the 6mmAR obviously. But the originals were bolt action cartridges from the start. The Grendel is a licensed cartridge/chamber but Les Baer has decided to skirt that issue on his own with the .264 LBC-AR.
There is no 6.8 PPC so this might be a typo... The 6.8 Remington SPC is an AR-based cartridge but with a 0.422" diameter rim. It's based on the .30 Remington cartridge.
Yes, machinations. It's a good word. [}:)]
Let me know when you became a gunsmith so I can update my notes.
Best.0
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