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Rifle barrels, smokeless versus black powder

Biped
I'm, shopping for a used Sharps 1874 rifle (replica). I want to use smokeless powder and jacketed bullets. How can I know if a used rifle is set up for smokeless/jacketed versus blackpowder/lead? What is the downside to shooting jacketed smokless in a blackpowder rifle?
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6 comments

Date Votes
  • yoshmyster
    Manufacture's web site?

    Down side? "KABOOM"!!!
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  • Hawk Carse
    Any name brand REPLICA Sharps in a caliber currently available in a SAAMI listed caliber (mostly .45-70) will be amply strong enough for smokeless powder and have hard enough steel barrel for jacketed bullets. The Italian replicas are proof tested for use with 28,000 CUP loads. Some manuals will say you can load them that way (Speer), some say you should treat them like a Trapdoor or antique Sharps (Lyman.) Even at the low load level, a 400 grain JSP at 1400+ fps is plenty powerful.

    A friend has one of the cheap Sile Sharps which is very accurate with jacketed bullets but pretty bad with cast.
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  • givette
    My 'green box' Remington .45-70-405 is safe for repro 1873's. And it's loaded with smokeless.

    Since the Remington factory round is safe in a trapdoor type action, which is inherently weaker than the sharps falling block design, I'd not hesitate to fire it [Rem green box] in modern, well made firearms of outdated design.

    Now, two questions:

    1. Is there any way to convert the pressure of 70gr FFg in a Government sized case to an appropriate nitro powder equivalent?

    2. I have loading data (old Lyman manual) that gives smokeless loadings for the 1886 Winchester .45-70. That's original 1886 guns, folks! Would that be safe in the modern made Sharps*? As you can see in the table below, the 'factory' loading is considerably lighter than the max loading for the old 1886's. Would a modern Sharps be just as strong?

    I, too, would be interested in such data if anyone knows of either a conversion table, or a chart somewhere. Joe

    EDIT
    Thanks Hawk Carse for taking the time to respond [ref: post below]. Means a lot. Best to all, Joe



    *Factory Dup load IMR 3031 38.5gr 1300FPS
    Max load for 1886 IMR 3031 48.0 1730FPS
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  • tsr1965
    Quite a few of the modern replica's have a rifling style that really likes the HARD cast bullets. They include the Uberti, Pedersoli, and Army San Marco Sharps, and Rolling Blocks. Also included in that bunch from experience, is the Marlin 1895 Cowboy, the 1886 Winchester's and Brownings, as well as the 1885's. I have had a Pedersoli Sharps Deluxe, and it along with my Browning 1885 BPCR, and Winchester 1886 takedown(1999 edition), all love the 405 Hardcast bullets. I run them with IMR 4198, in the amount from 32.0-34 grains. A friend has an 1895 Cowboy, and it too, prefers those loads. The nominal velocity is between 1300-1500 FPS.

    By the way...the hard cast(18 Brinell) bullets are a lot less expensive than jacketed.

    Best
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  • Hawk Carse
    1. Is there any way to convert the pressure of 70gr FFg in a Government sized case to an appropriate nitro powder equivalent?

    The first edition Accurate Arms manual established chamber pressure for obsolete BPCR cartridges by shooting them with black, recording the pressure, and loading smokeless no heavier. I recall that most of them were in the low 20,000s. Speer No 12 says they stopped at 21,000 CUP for Trapdoors. Lyman no 49 only goes to 18,000.

    2. I have loading data (old Lyman manual) that gives smokeless loadings for the 1886 Winchester .45-70. That's original 1886 guns, folks! Would that be safe in the modern made Sharps*? As you can see in the table below, the 'factory' loading is considerably lighter than the max loading for the old 1886's. Would a modern Sharps be just as strong?

    Pedersoli and other Italian makers will only say that their rifles are proof tested for use at the 28,000 CUP maximum SAAMI level. Look in current manuals, literature, and www with pressure tested data to see where you stand. The new Lyman manual would have you limit repros to Trapdoor loads, Speer lets you take them to "lever action" charges.
    Kirk Bryant, owner of Shiloh, says his rifles will hold the 40,000 CUP "Ruger" loads but recommends using the starting load and letting the long barrel make up velocity.
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  • Biped
    Thanks for the information. I would seem I'm good to go with a modern replica 1874 Sharps rifle marketed as a black powder shooter. Jacketed versus lead will require experimenting but the smokeless powder is not an issue. I'll start with factory ammo. My budget tops out at $800 and I'd like a good rifle for less. I've seen several EMF & Uberti's that might work. 28 inches, 45-70.
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