Colt 1911 Navy - The Final Chapter

Spider7115

February 18, 2011 12:50

Thanks for the update. So, did they buy it back or compensate you with a partial refund?

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Old-Colts

February 18, 2011 12:53

Thanks for the update; I'm glad they made it right!!!!

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eebantinpa

February 18, 2011 13:52

As per our agreement with Redding, they've asked us not to divulge the details and we are going to honor their request.

But I will reiterate that we were very satisfied with the way Redding handled the situation.

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perry shooter

February 18, 2011 14:00

I love a Happy ending. I would still love to have the two guns you bought but not at what you paid for them. I will be interesting on where or if they show up again on an auction. I am going to keep a watchful eye on at least Three different sellers who Should I say have been known to try to pull a fast one on people with deep pockets. [V]

EDITHello Wolf I suspect 90 % of these guns go to a High roller. that just wants to show off to his Friends . Had a Guy known to be a scam artist trying to sell me a 3 digit civilian 1911 when I told him it had problems and was not original even showed hin information in Clawsons & Goddards books he got Irate. Came back 2 weeks later and stated an well known auction house had not questioned the gun and sold it as ALL ORIGINAL.this is when I learned to question ANY high dollar gun that is for sale by any body and any where. IMHO auction houses are like Gundealers . They don't really like/collect guns. and don't really want to take the time to learn all about all brands and types of firearms.Remember a high end COLLECTOR is an entirely different animal and even they get taken in every now and then.I like to buy 95%-98% guns because if you look at say the B.B. of gun values you will see a BIG difference between 98 % and like new guns . This is where the faker makes their mistake .they are too greedy to take a perfect restored gun and reduce it's value by a big chunk ans then turn it into a 95% gun.. NOBODY will spend Thousands of dollars to fake a cheap gun. JUST like art fakes abound.[:(!][V]BE careful.

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Wolf.

February 18, 2011 14:20

Reading these five topics over the last two weeks has to make one ask the obvious:

How many bogus "perfect" guns sold at auction have been worked like this one and are sitting in collections right now or are being sold again and again as legitimate, perfect guns?

Wouldn't one think that an auction house specializing in or even selling more than an occasional old firearm would certainly have or should have resources in house, or at a minimum, have available those same resources, that are capable of properly and professionally evaluating the weapons given over to them to sell? The efforts made here on the GB Ask the Experts forum were enough to call into question the legitimacy of this gun and prove it false. I think that for a public auction house to obviously not have taken those steps, and then post a disclaimer saying it is up to the purchaser to determine the legitimacy of the piece, reveals a great deal about that organization. Actually the reverse of such a disclaimer is true!! These operations have the obligation to prove the legitimacy of their goods prior to offering them for sale!! Stating such a disclaimer and having it prevail under legal scrutiny are two different things, as I am sure both our purchaser who originated these topics and the seller are well aware.

This certainly should open the eyes of anyone seriously considering those perfect guns we see on the Auction side from time to time.

Sounds like this all turned out for the good, thanks to a few questions being asked.

It would sure would be interesting, would it not, to be a fly on the wall in Turnbull's shop when he has his ledger book opened and to see how many of those high end restorations go to a the same people repeatedly and then to see where those guns eventually wind up and via what means?

"I'm shocked, shocked [:0] there's gambling going on in here!" -Captain Renault- CASABLANCA [:)]

EDIT--EDIT--EDIT
From givette's reply below...
quote:From Wolf.
"It would sure would be interesting, would it not, to be a fly on the wall in Turnbull's shop when he has his ledger book opened and to see how many of those high end restorations go to a the same people repeatedly and then to see where those guns eventually wind up and via what means"

I'll take this further..To drastically reduce the probability of something like this ever happening again, Doug Turnbull should have an updated ledger of the work that leaves his shop. etc., etc. (see givette's reply below)
Personally, I don't feel that Turnbull or anyone performing services similar to his should have any responsibility placed upon them at all as far as providing some policing assistence to keep crooks from operating. How about half-@$$ed refurbishers? Should we have them also open their books to the world as well? No? Who else, then? Turnbull didn't have a responsibility to divulge information to an inquiry regarding our buyer's gun and I for one don't want to make it his responsibility to do so.

How all this fakery and who-knew-what-when came to be, as relates to this particular instance of the Navy 1911 is rather murky, at best. However, I don't think that is what matters here, really. What this series of topics really shows us, in my opinion, is that first, there appears to be a rather significant trade in counterfeit first class weaponry (more than I would have thought anyway)and second, exposing these counterfeits is not necessarily difficult to do, as evidenced here.

Further, I disagree that the seller (individual or organization) has no responsibility to determine condition or authenticity of an item offered at a considerable premium due to its condition, historical value or other touted features. Cloaking items for sale in the rarified air of a trusted seller organization demands such responsibility and especially so in cases where buyers are expected to pay a percentage above the "hammer price" to the house.

I also disagree that faking wear on a weapon such as this "fixed up" Navy 1911 is easy to do.

What does seem to be easy to do is to find a potential buyer so anxious to possess a top quality museum piece weapon that they fail to take appropriate precautions due to misplaced trust, a lack of time due to immediacy of the sale or some other reason(s). And, that's too bad. It is a good thing our buyer here gave all this some second thought and investigated.

I think many of us reading the tale of this Navy 1911 have learned quite a bit.

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eebantinpa

February 18, 2011 17:34

I think we're always going to have to deal with the possibility of fakes, regardless of the condition of the gun. Rare guns always command high prices. If and when guns, like coins, start to be certified by independent third parties, then and only then will we have some reassurance of authenticity.

I remember 15 years ago when you had to look at coins/currency under a microscope to try to determine their grade and thereby value. Are there any known third party evaluation firms that everybody in the gun community will respect and get certifications? And perhaps buyers should demand sellers get such? Of course, you can't put it in a tamper-proof case like the coins are.

As to whether or not auction houses should know whether the guns they sell are in original condition, in an ideal world, the answer is yes, but how they would come to find out is another question altogether. Should businesses like Turnbull be required to disclose any and every gun they've refinished? They're a private business doing work for private individuals. It's up to the OWNER of the guns to disclose this information. In my case, the owner passed away a month and a half after the guns were reblued. The estate was selling them. The estate didn't disclose to Redding whether or not the guns had work done to them.

So we were all left on our own to determine. We thought, as did Redding, that the guns were perfect. Unfortunately, now we all know to write down the serial numbers of guns too perfect and call Turnbull to ask about their past. What we're afraid of is that people will have guns expertly reblued/refinished and then put "wear" marks where holster marks would be, just to make the gun more realistic/authentic. This is where we're all going to have a problem in the future.

I guarantee we or Redding won't have these guns for sale but do watch out for others.

Again, thank God for Gunbroker and this forum!

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givette

February 19, 2011 02:37

From Wolf.
"It would sure would be interesting, would it not, to be a fly on the wall in Turnbull's shop when he has his ledger book opened and to see how many of those high end restorations go to a the same people repeatedly and then to see where those guns eventually wind up and via what means"

I'll take this further..To drastically reduce the probability of something like this ever happening again, Doug Turnbull should have an updated ledger of the work that leaves his shop.

To eliminate the distribution problem, it can be placed at the bottom of one of the pages in his website, as a thought. Let the person making the entry into the A/D book make a spreadsheet entry at the same time (getting the info out there to the web).

All that would be required is make/model/SerNo and any non-normal features. Name of owner not included, as the gun's legitimacy is the only thing needed to be verified.

This sounds so simple, I'm scared that it may work!

Now, back to the auction house..they are like Gunbroker. The bidder has to inspect the item, and bid or not based on his own expertise! If I were running an auction house, I certainly wouldn't commit to the veracity of the seller, nor to the bona-fides of the item being auctioned.

As a buyer, I'd seek expert advice if at all possible, but the onus would be on Me!! Best, Joe

Perry Shooter, Old Colts, Bert H. would make a nice piece of change hiring themselves out as appraisers[:0][:D]

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nmyers

February 19, 2011 06:19

Well, let's not overregulate Doug Turnbull to death. He is, in fact, the one true hero in this entire incident. His records are open, his work is widely known & recognized, & he cooperates in any investigation. If it had not been for his assistance, this incident may not have had a happy ending.

The real problem in the high end gun scams are the largely unknown "humpers" who have been altering & refinishing guns for years, &, for the most part, getting away with it. When someone questions one of their guns, these guys will cheerfully give a refund, knowing that this will prevent all legal action. Proof of intent to defraud is extremely difficult. Most "humped" guns end up in safes & gun rooms for many years; when they are eventually put up for sale & identified as fakes, it is often too late for the buyer or his family to get reimbursed.

The bottom line is, it's risky to buy an expensive gun unless you are an expert in that area, or have a good library, or can call on an expert for consultation. You can't assume that any dealer or auction house is going to do the research into every expensive gun they sell; it's not in their best interest. There are many "high rollers" who invest in guns from "well known" sources, assuming that they are as represented. Today, with the internet & ease of taking high resolution photos, we are all in a better position to identify fakes before we buy.

Neal

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kylew

February 20, 2011 06:53

If you go back to the first thread and read Mr eebantinpa knew nothing about 1911"s He now comments as a seasoned expert. As I suspected he knows more than he discloses. Perry is correct that "dealers" don't care about the guns just about the money. Mr. eebantinpa is in this group. He had no desire to own a historic side arm just turn and burn it and make 200%

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32 Magnum

February 20, 2011 07:58

I've been following this thread with great interest. As many of you know, my collecting expertise is primarily centered around H&R firearms. While I know of and have seen high end guns that were faked, I've also found and seen H&Rs, which you wouln't expect to be considered high end, that have been altered and faked. In this case, the "humper" has taken $100 guns and tried to make them into $300 or higher items. So, my point is - you can be fooled or find fakers at both ends of the value spectrums - it is a sad state of affairs for all true collectors of ANY type of firearm.

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Colt 1911 Navy - The Final Chapter

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