Versatility of .223 round?
Just how useful is the .223. Looks from a projectile view that the range of weight runs from 40 grain to 120. On the terminal end more weight would deliver more punch?
What is the full range of the .223 and opinions on its effect on bigger game?
What is the full range of the .223 and opinions on its effect on bigger game?
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I'll take a crack at this here.
Energy is a function of velocity and mass (Mass X Velocity squared). A lighter bullet may match a heavier bullet in energy at the muzzle in that it is going faster. For instance, it is easy to drive a .223 in the 50 gr or under range up to and over 3000 fps, but harder to do so with heavier projectiles without exceeding pressure limits.
In general a heavier bullet will retain more momentum over longer distances. That isn't to say that a heavier bullet is always more desireable though; a lighter weight varmint bullet that expands better on small game is preferable to a heavy FMJ or HPBT for hunting. Really, the .223 isn't a big game cartridge. Yes, it will kill most anything, but shot placement becomes ever more crucial. Ergo, I wouldn't say that a heavier bullet necissarily delivers more 'punch' in that a HPBT in the 90-120 grain range might just punch right through a target at say, 300 yards, whereas a lighter bullet with a soft point nose will expand. Even though the heavier bullet has more energy, it does not expend it on the target as efficiently as does the lighter bullet. In theory a heavy soft point- of which there are few in the .223 offerings- would pack a greater punch at long range.
You also have to match bullet weight and length to the twist rate and desired application of a specific gun. Guns with a 1:7.5" twist will perform best with heavy bullets, but probably cause light ones to fly apart. Guns with a 1:12" twist or slower might not stabilize the heavier projectile properly.
I would say that it is fine for varmints and smallish medium game MAYBE up to mule deer but insufficient for larger game, hence my stout criticism of it as a combat round. In terms of range, it is useful out to perhaps 600 yards on varmints at the extreme end, and to 1000-1200 yards for target work with heavy bullets that maintain momemntum better.
For 100-300 yards it is a superbly accurate round that doesn't punish the shoulder and doesn't burn out the throat of the gun quickly.0 -
For clarification---Jonk's response is basically correct, EXCEPT that the formula for kinetic energy is (K.E. = 1/2m x V squared). With that fact in mind it is easy to see that velocity plays a larger role in this equation than does the mass component. How is punch defined, and how K.E. enters in to that is a whole "nother" discussion. Good luck. HAWKSHAW 0 -
What's the .223 good for?
Its potentially very accurate and its really excellent as a "varmint" round on small game.
With the proper bullets, its potentially good for hunting things weighing up to say 200-250 lbs.
Yes you "can" kill bigger things with it, but there are much better choices out there for that sort of thing, and you probably shouldn't try unless you have no alternative.
The US military (and many others) thinks this is a good anti-personnel round for modern and urban combat which usually takes place at 200 yards or less.
Biggest benefit of the round isn't its absolute power; there are much more powerful military rounds out there, including a variety better suited to shooting through hardened targets and at greater distances.
Its that the .223 offers a good combination of low recoil, small overall size (meaning soldiers can carry many rounds), and super-high velocity (ie 3000 fps) that delivers wounding power disproportionate to the small size of the projectile. The small round also lets you get away firing it from a relatively small and lightweight gun, which is also a military advantage.
Effective range depends on the platform you're shooting it from, as well as the bullet type.
From an AR-15 type gun, in practice, you're probably good out to maybe 300 yards with ordinary iron or no/low magnification combat sights. Yes, its *possible* to connect further than that.
With a match-type setup using high quality optics, the appropriate barrel twist AND heavy match type bullets, you can probably make reasonably good hits out to 800 yards on paper, or even a bit further if weather and other factors are in your favor.
For hunting smaller game, you're somewhere in between, I think, and for larger game, you probably should stick to relatively close ranges, since shot placement is going to be critical with this relatively light round.
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On kinetic energy, that is ONE measure of the potential destructive (or "stopping") power of a projectile, with momentum (or "power factor") being another.
Without getting too technical here with respect to physics, the .223 puts out a really light bullet really fast. Since kinetic energy is proportionate the square of velocity, fast bullets like the .223 pack on a lot of energy. But the bullet is also light in weight, meaning low momentum.
In the real world, high energy/low momentum potentially translates into a lot of destructive power on soft/thin targets, but not terribly good penetration. Also light bullets tend to lose velocity/energy quickly at range, meaning that the nice light 55 grain bullets that pulpify tissue at 100 yards aren't all that effective at say 500 yards.
You can up the potential range and penetration with heavier weight bullets, but of course then you decrease the velocity proportionately.
While its *possible* to stretch out the effective range of the .223 with the right setup and heavy bullets, basically the .223 isn't "built" for that. Ultimately, if your goal is to whomp big things from far away, you want to go to a bigger caliber.0 -
First off, you are not going to get one 223 chambered rifle which likes all bullet weights from 35 grain to 90 grain. What a rifle likes will be dependant on the twist rate. A 1 in 7 twist will like 68-90 grain bullets, a 1 in 8 will favor 60-80 grain bullets, and a 1 in 12 will like the 40-55 grain weights. That is just the way the cookie crumbles.
The weight of the bullet does not have as much to do with what game animals it is capable of taking as the bullet construction itself. I will state flat out, it is unethical to hunt medium to large sized game, with bullets that do not expand...PERIOD. Unless it is edable small game, or pelt hunting of predators, one has no business pulling the trigger on an animal with a non expanding bullet, unless it is in self defense.
I also stated in a recent topic, that the only 0.223" diameter bullets capable for big game are the 60 grain Nosler Partition, or any of the Barnes TSX bullets. I stand by that statement.
Now to answer the OP's question...dependant on the use, and the skills of the hunter/shooter, it is capable for some fairly large, non-dangerous game. This means, loaded with the correct bullet for the task at hand, and staying within the limits of the equipment, and shooter, where there is certainty that each and every shot can be put in the kill zone. I personally would not shoot an unwounded animal past 200 yards or so, using a 223 with the 62, or 70 grain Barnes TSX bullets.
Best
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Beantown,
Greetings, hope all is well with you.
quote:bullet weight and construction actually aren't entirely independent of one another
That would assume the same type of bullet construction. Once you get your feet wet with the "premium", controlled expansion bullets I listed, especially the TSX, you will entirely understand. Will a 62 grain TSX out penetrate a 45 grain TSX...absolutely. Will it out pentetrate a 55 grain FMJ...most likely. Will it out penetrate a 90 grain SMK...probably not. On the other hand will a 55 grain Ballistic Tip(BT) out penetrate a 45 grain TSX?...I mean to tell you, that the TSX will beat that 55 grain BT EVERY time! I have vast experience with those "PREMIUM" bullets I listed.
quote:But just to be Devil's advocate (ie internet wiseacre) for super-large dangerous African game like Elephant, Rhino, etc, many authorities still favor monolithic solid bullets, which are heavy bullets specifically designed NOT to expand, so they can penetrate as deeply as possible into vital organs.
You went on to answer yourself on this one, but I will restate, that that had to do purposly with hunting medium sporting game such as the deer, and antelope species, with small calibers, under 0.400" diameter, and dangerous game with the same. Sure the feat has been done, but I still say it is unethical.
quote:I've personally never tried it, but those two rounds are supposedly "best of breed" for hunting deer, if that's the question. I think others could work, dependent on what exactly you're talking about and where you intend to place the shot.
But I think you'd have to define what you mean by "big" here.
Again, I wouldn't advise using ANY .223 round for the truly "big" American game (ie moose, elk, bear). Yes, it "can" be done. . .people have killed all of those animals with .22LRs or even arrows from a bow. . .but there are just far better choices out there.
I think the bottom line for .223 is if you want to hunt with it, stick to deer or smaller, and even deer only if you know what you're doing and have a good bullet to do it with.
Yes, the definition I would use is the deer, and medium sized antelope species. I would also intend that dangerous game should be in there as well, but you know there are thrill seeker's that will try it...sometimes you get the bear...sometimes the bear gets you[:0][:0][:0]
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WOW That was a lot of very good information that I honestly enjoyed reading. Thanks Jonk, bean and all.
In my highly educated and learned opinion I find that the 223 is great for shootin small to medium critters.0 -
quote:Originally posted by tsr1965
First off, you are not going to get one 223 chambered rifle which likes all bullet weights from 35 grain to 90 grain. What a rifle likes will be dependant on the twist rate. A 1 in 7 twist will like 68-90 grain bullets, a 1 in 8 will favor 60-80 grain bullets, and a 1 in 12 will like the 40-55 grain weights. That is just the way the cookie crumbles.
Agreeing completely, one way you could get around this is to put different twist-rate .223 uppers on your favorite AR-15 lower. So you could have a varmint upper and a separate "hunting" upper, if you liked, effectively turning one gun into two.
quote:
The weight of the bullet does not have as much to do with what game animals it is capable of taking as the bullet construction itself.
Again, largely agreeing, bullet weight and construction actually aren't entirely independent of one another. At any given velocity with any given caliber, if you want penetration you're going to need a certain amount of weight to get it. Put differently, no matter how you construct the bullet, there is only so much you're going to be able to do with one that weighs only 35 grains.
The main reason to use the heavier bullet weights in a .223 is for longer range shooting, since heavier bullets retain energy better at distance, and aren't quite as susceptible to wind effect, etc.
quote:
I will state flat out, it is unethical to hunt medium to large sized game, with bullets that do not expand...PERIOD. Unless it is edable small game, or pelt hunting of predators, one has no business pulling the trigger on an animal with a non expanding bullet, unless it is in self defense.
Well, as a general rule this is probably true for hunting in North America. With good hunting ammo available for just about every caliber nowadays, there really isn't a good excuse not to use it.
But just to be Devil's advocate (ie internet wiseacre) for super-large dangerous African game like Elephant, Rhino, etc, many authorities still favor monolithic solid bullets, which are heavy bullets specifically designed NOT to expand, so they can penetrate as deeply as possible into vital organs.
This, obviously, is sort of a "special case", and frankly, you'd be insane to try hunting any of those dangerous animals with a .223 using ANY type of bullet! (Not to mention that doing so would be illegal too).
Again, the rule is, to the extent possible, to use ammo specifically designed for your intended purpose. Ammo intended for shooting big animals is sub-optimal for hunting smaller ones and vice versa.
quote:
I also stated in a recent topic, that the only 0.223" diameter bullets capable for big game are the 60 grain Nosler Partition, or any of the Barnes TSX bullets. I stand by that statement.
. . .
Now to answer the OP's question...dependant on the use, and the skills of the hunter/shooter, it is capable for some fairly large, non-dangerous game.
I've personally never tried it, but those two rounds are supposedly "best of breed" for hunting deer, if that's the question. I think others could work, dependent on what exactly you're talking about and where you intend to place the shot.
But I think you'd have to define what you mean by "big" here.
Again, I wouldn't advise using ANY .223 round for the truly "big" American game (ie moose, elk, bear). Yes, it "can" be done. . .people have killed all of those animals with .22LRs or even arrows from a bow. . .but there are just far better choices out there.
I think the bottom line for .223 is if you want to hunt with it, stick to deer or smaller, and even deer only if you know what you're doing and have a good bullet to do it with.0 -
Up to 120 grain bullet.
I guess I learned something
Where do I get them??
CP0 -
quote:Originally posted by cpermd
Up to 120 grain bullet.
I guess I learned something
Where do I get them??
Personally, I've never seen nor heard of a 120 grain .224 bullet. Sierra makes 90 grain bullets that are supposedly pretty good.
Lacking evidence to the contrary, I'd assume this particular ammo is crap, but it does pack 100 grain bullets in .223:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=136315
The problem with super heavy bullets (in general) is that they are extra-long. So you either have to put more bullet in your case (which decreases case volume and potentially increase operating pressures), and/or have more bullet sticking out of the case (with potentially compromises loading from a standard magazine and can also cause problems in chambering).
Also, if you want to run a 90+ grain bullet right (ie accurately), you're going to need a pretty fast twist rate, say 1-in-6 to 1-in-7.
My take on this is why try to turn a .223 into something its not? Its one thing if you only have one rifle, and CAN only have one rifle, and you need to make the most of what you got. But that's not the case here in the USA where good rifles are abundant and relatively inexpensive. If you want a light round with more "oomph" there are plenty of good rounds in .243/6mm and up to pick from, and it is possible to run .243 on an AR-15 platform.
With respect to TSR above, we're both saying the same thing. I know the premium .223s you mention are good.
In terms of bullet construction vs weight, in addition to penetration issues, another point is that you can't necessarily get the same kind of construction with a 35 grain that you can with a 60 or 75 grainer. Its because you need a certain amount of metal present to physically build the bullet and cause the controlled expansion.
Stretching things, you can probably hunt BLACK bear with a .223, but again, you're getting into the ragged edge where "possible" "unethical" and "stupid" intersect. Again, just because you "can" doesn't mean you "should"!
From a practical hunting perspective, using a .223 in a borderline way is potentially going to limit the TYPES of shots you might take, and why put yourself there?0 -
If you don't reload I think it is the most useful varmint/practice round out there. The availability of different ammo by manufacturer, bullet weight/type and expense is unsurpassed. Purchase and Experiment until you find an accurate load for hunting and buy cheap FMJ stuff to practice with. Also a great round for beginning shooters because of the light recoil. 0 -
Thanks for all that good info. Looks like 223 is very versatile.
Must of dreamed the over 100 grain projectile...
Thought I saw it somewhere in google ville0
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