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Colt 1911 Navy Part 4

eebantinpa
Neal,

I still don't see the lettering problem on the gun. If it actually is a reblued gun, they did an excellent job and I'd highly recommend them. I asked them for some sort of certification that they actually did the job and if there's a mark that they leave, where would I find it.

I'm not denying what you posted about this gun at all and thank you for the information. However, if there's no provenance about what Turnbull did, who's to say that they actually did the work? I mean, think about it, anyone could come up to the podium and say they restored/reblued the gun, end of story. If they give me what I asked for, I will definitely post it here. It'll be Part 5 or 6 (the way this is going) but I will let this forum know.
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Comments

13 comments

Date Votes
  • tsr1965
    eebantinpa,

    OK, lets put this into some sort of perspective. They only made, shipped, and issued 1000 of the Navy's like yours. What are the chances that one never got issued? What are the chances that one never got a mark on it? What are the chances that a 99 year old 1911, that was issued, never got a mark on it, and still looks like the day it left the factor? Should it not look like a 1911 that is unsued that is 99 years old? I have a couple Colt first generation SAA's, that don't have a turn line on, that are over 100 years old. They are all original finish. They do not look like the SAA's I have that are 20-30 years younger than them, let alone 99 or 100.

    Secondly, I don't think it is wise to cast doubt on an industry giant like Turnbull. They are a very credible shop, and their services are globally recognized. If they said they done it, I am sure they have proof to back themselves up.

    Best
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  • USN_Airdale
    i have a 1911 U.S.Navy slide, it is pitted around the ejection port, probably from corrosive ammo, can it be restored and what might be it's value ?
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  • tsr1965
    It can possibly restored, and its value is around $50.00 as is, and about $100.00 restored. The only thing it is really good for is a shooter, as it will never make a 100% Navy, no matter what condition.

    Best
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  • givette
    Doug [Turnbull] may very well be reluctant to identify his hidden 'signature mark'.

    Perhaps he'll wait until he has to..in a case where a court-order tells him to do so in order to establish/vanquish a fraud claim in court.

    I'd bet if the 'mark' were common knowledge, fraudsters would be focusing on removal of said stamping.

    The Turnbull shop said they did it. You have the reblue (re charcoal?) admitted to us directly from the shop. Perhaps they will gladly tell anyone who asks about whether or not Turnbull did any work on a particular firearm. Much better, in my opinion, than disclosing their hidden mark, and the proof from Turnbull will be gladly again, in my opinion, be sent to you in the form of a letter stating such. Give them a howdy-do, and see if what I say happens to be correct.

    I noticed, when it came to the markings, the numbers/letters were too perfect, and showed jewellers' strikes. You wouldn't see that in an assembly-line rollstamp. Besides, Turnbull said they didn't perform any letter/number work on the firearm in question, anyway. Best, Joe
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  • Spider7115
    quote:Originally posted by eebantinpa
    However, if there's no provenance about what Turnbull did, who's to say that they actually did the work? I mean, think about it, anyone could come up to the podium and say they restored/reblued the gun, end of story.
    I don't think provenance would be a problem. I'm sure a company like Turnbull maintains impeccable records on every firearm they touch, e.g., Make/Model, serial number, work performed, date, owner information, cost, etc. If you provide evidence that you now own the gun, maybe they'll even provide you with a copy of the work order.
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  • Herschel
    This thread has brought some serious questions to mind.

    Why would Turnbull claim to have refinished the gun if they had not done it? Are there two Navy 1911's out there with the same sn?

    Why would they reveal a secret mark that certifies their work?

    I am not an expert on Model 1911 pistols but as a collector and dealer I can't believe that the gun was kept in "like new" condition all these years then showed up at an auction.
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  • Hawk Carse
    Why would Turnbull NOT describe their mark?
    If it is so hidden and so secret then it does no good until somebody has already been cheated, as here.

    I don't know if Turnbull refinished the grips as well as rebluing, but all the 1911s on their brag page have that same orange tint on the smooth diamonds.
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  • nmyers
    "Provenance" is evidence of the source & history of an item, including the legal ownership & transfer. For a gun close to 100 years old, our knowledge of only the last few months of it's history is not really significant. And, provenance doesn't tell us who damaged an item, & who restored it, & it usually doesn't matter.

    It sounds to me like you want "proof" that your gun has been refinished, &, if I had worked on it, I would not want to get caught in the middle of a legal action. You can accept or reject the email from Turnbull; if you want proof that will stand up in court, you will need to get a hands-on appraisal from an expert. I am far from an expert, but I do own a copy of Charles Clawson's "Collector's Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols/Models of 1911 and 1911A1", as well as other references. Photos of documented original pistols often help identify unknown pistols of this type.

    I don't know anyone who questions the quality of Turnbull's work, or their honesty. Their restorations sell for less than original guns, but are good enough to fool the experts. Their skill & integrity has enabled them to build a successful business, & they are not about to ruin it by saying something that could be proven untrue.

    I know that you are disappointed that you didn't get the bargain you thought you did. Many of us have made mistakes, too.

    Neal
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  • perry shooter
    Ok First look at it this way.If the gun was original in ever way What would Turnbull have to gain by saying he had Blued the pistol NOTHING I think Turnbull is a up front company . I also think they keep absolute detailed records. I feel 100% that if they said they blued the pistol then that is a fact. . Most anyone I know are motivated in making statements for one of two reasons #1 it will make them money. or #2 it will preserve Their good name and reputation. . Turnbull surely will not make any money for his company by making statement he worked on THE pistol. But rather wants to set the record straight and not be accused of selling a gun under false pretence. . Now if Turnbull was the consignor and stated it was original Then I would have a problem. The reason some of us thought the lettering and more importantly the serial number looked "FUNNY" was the fact when a flat piece of metal is stamped. The die displaces metal most of this results in an indentation however a slight amount of metal projects outward like the lip of an impact crater. When you CUT/Engrave numbers or letters there is no LIP.
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  • eebantinpa
    I use "provenance" just as a fancy way to say paperwork in regards to the unfortunate/sordid past of this gun. You'll have to forgive my ignorance as I'd never heard of Turnbull before and having their name turn up on Part 3 of this interesting topic, just made me suspicious.

    I did email Turnbull last night and received a reply from Todd this morning stating that yes, they had reblued the gun. They couldn't give me the information about who had commissioned the gun to them but did state that the gun was stripped of all old blueing and all they did was reblue it. I then emailed Todd to ask about a 2nd gun we bought at the same auction, another Colt 1911 (but Army with a larger serial number). He stated that indeed, they had done both. The 2nd gun had the same perfection done as the first one.

    Todd never answered my question about a "telltale" mark/insignia on the guns which would state that they actually reblued them. I understand their reluctance to do so, as someone stated above, that if the mark was given public, unscrupulous buyers/sellers would be looking to "erase" the mark. However, we all, as buyers, should be suspicious of anything too good to be true.

    We faxed Redding Auction this morning after the final communication with Turnbull. They were aghast at the accusations, maybe shocked would be a better term. We've dealt with this auction house many times and bought quite a few guns from them. We trust them completely. Redding isn't your typical auction house. They said they were going to contact Turnbull and find out the truth. When Redding contacts us again, I'll let you all know the outcome.

    Thanks once again for all the excellent information this board/forum puts out. Disappointed? Of course I am but I'd rather learn the truth about the guns now then try and sell them on this site for big $$$ and have it come back to me, big time. You all are an amazing wealth of knowledge.
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  • kylew
    Mr eebantinpa knows more than he is letting on
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  • eebantinpa
    Interesting. kylew what do you mean by that statement? I've been on the up and up throughout this entire discussion.
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  • countryfarmer
    eebantinpa please keep us informed as to what all this ends up being. It seems several different people and firms have been fooled by these pistols and it would be good to know the final outcome. The best of luck to you getting this resolved.
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