Colt 70 vs 80

Hawkshaw

January 31, 2011 08:50

What is the differance, something about a firing pin safety what is it? what does it do??

0

January 31, 2011 09:31

A 80 series has a firing pin block that works off the trigger pull, making it some harder to pull. Some have plastic triggers in them.
A good gunsmith can do a good trigger job on them.
Any Colt 1911 will go for $7-800.

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beantownshootah

January 31, 2011 10:03

There are a number of minor differences such as a few plastic parts in some of the series 80 guns, but the most important difference is that the series 80 gun has a firing pin block safety that will only let the firing pin move forward if the trigger is pulled back.

So while in theory a series 70 gun "could" go off if dropped hard on the muzzle with a round in the chamber, the series 80 gun shouldn't.

Some purists don't like the series 80 pin safety since it slightly reduces the quality of the trigger pull, and for this reason, generally "match" grade 1911s are build using the older series 70 design.

In a defensive gun, a match-grade trigger pull isn't necessary (and some would even argue that its counterproductive), so for carry I don't think it matters.

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511pe

January 31, 2011 19:30

You're not supposed to drop your gun ever. Glock seemed to brake ground for pistols that can be dropped with no so called safety issues related to dropping. 1911s had a not so good run in law enforcement mainly because some officers simply wouldn't draw from the hostler by the grip alone and would draw up with the trigger. This caused worker comp injuries with officers who seemed to do like Barny Fife but shoot themselves in their own leg in the process. The hammer thumb safety was called "the suicide switch" and so they often didn't use the safety because it had a grip safety. Some liked to pistol whip suspects while clutching the trigger only to have an accidental shot go off. And there's the old classic caught in the seat belt accidental discharge. The solution was to add a safety to rule out the gun just went off story. Smith&Wesson was a close competitor with so called mag release safeties so something had to be done. Some law enforcement agencies have forbidden any 1911 style to include the 80s style pistol for those reasons and adopted the Glock for agency issue. The Government 70s model is my favorite because of that feel oh so good trigger pull! Realistically I wouldn't pay more than $750 for 95% more like $675 if it's modified or the grips are not original. They aren't so rare. The Commander and Officer's models were made with law enforcement in mind because of veterans entering into local agencies could transition to a side arm that they may have used in the armed services but be shorter than the Government model for a fast draw. If you love 1911s get something not so common and top shelf like a Nighthawk Custom Talon II or a T3 in stainless they're not "run of the mill" and are assembled by learned smith experts unlike mass produced/marketed items. You'll have to go to a small arms dealer to get one so that isn't screwed up by show off or flaunting while handling it like a common Glock dinging up your masterpiece. You'll never look at any other 1911 the same after you get one. You'll actually learn what a custom is part by part.

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beantownshootah

January 31, 2011 20:47

quote:Originally posted by 511pe
You're not supposed to drop your gun ever.

You're also not supposed to get into auto accidents, ever miss your target when shooting, fail to brush your teeth after every meal, etc.

The point is humans are fallible and "poo" happens. People don't always keep their fingers off the trigger or the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, etc. Floors get slippery. . .people trip, they fall down. . .they get startled, they drop things, etc.

So, to the extent possible, its nice if mechanical systems (especially life or death ones like firearms), take into account the possibility of human error and are designed to help mitigate the consequences. And that's why guns have drop safeties.

quote:
Glock seemed to brake ground for pistols that can be dropped with no so called safety issues related to dropping.
Well, Sig P220 was invented in 1975 and has a firing pin block safety very similar to the one in the later series 80 Colts. Glocks were invented in 1980.

All the second generation Smith and Wesson autos were drop-safe and those were also introduced in 1980 (plus more readily available than Glocks within the USA at that time).

Colt series 80 pistols became commercially available in 1983, yes, after the Glocks. But that said, 1911 drop safety systems were in existence years before Glocks were invented, they just weren't mass produced.

Ruger had drop resistant transfer bar revolvers out in 1973.

Going back further, Smith put hammer block safeties in its guns in the *1890s*, and this design was improved to be drop resistant during WWII after an incident where a dropped revolver discharged and killed an American sailor. Iver Johnson had a functional transfer bar safety design in its revolvers in the 19th century too.

Glocks biggest innovation was convincing the public that a gun lacking any external manual safety (akin to a cocked and UNLOCKED 1911, without grip safety) was, in fact, "safe".

Note that the earliest versions of the original 1911 design lacked a thumb safety too, and the US military requested that Browning add one, as they believed the gun was too unsafe to carry with just the grip safety (itself introduced in 1908)

quote:1911s had a not so good run in law enforcement mainly because some officers simply wouldn't draw from the hostler by the grip alone and would draw up with the trigger. This caused worker comp injuries with officers who seemed to do like Barny Fife but shoot themselves in their own leg in the process. The hammer thumb safety was called "the suicide switch" and so they often didn't use the safety because it had a grip safety. Some liked to pistol whip suspects while clutching the trigger only to have an accidental shot go off. And there's the old classic caught in the seat belt accidental discharge. The solution was to add a safety to rule out the gun just went off story.
With due respect, by the 1980s, the 1911 had nearly 70 years of US military and civilian use under its belt. Its particular advantages and liabilities were WELL known by that time. Even series 70 guns aren't prone to drop discharge. While it *can* happen, it basically requires a hard drop right onto the muzzle.

The biggest reason that 1911s weren't popular for police use was that autos in general were thought to be too unreliable for police use. Why go with 7 shots of "maybe" ball .45ACP when you could get six shots of "for sure" hollowpoint .357 magnum? The auto gives barely any firepower advantage, and is much harder to train on and maintain.

The equation really changed during the "crack" cocaine epidemic of the early 1980s when criminal gang members were carrying high cap 9mm guns. Outgunned, the cops started switching en masse to autos. . .actually often SMITH autos. Glock managed to take market share via its simplified more "revolver like" safety-less design, as well as its unprecedented marketing. But the biggest reason for the wholesale change by police to auto pistols was to get the increased capacity of double-stack guns, not for any reasons related to external safeties or drop safeties.

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511pe

February 01, 2011 15:00

Well it seems this topic question is answered in all aspects. FYI (way off topic)not having an external hammer was also a plus for various complaints of getting physical with a law enforcement officer and snap firing the hammer during a panic weapon retention situation. Glock simply has no way to fire the gun except if you pull the trigger. Liability and workers comp cases are not what any public or private employer wants. The only way you can idiot proof anything is to keep an idiot away from it by not allowing it to happen. External safeties are great for timing if a suspect grabs your gun but can snag a holster draw like an external hammer and that's why some agencies policies don't allow certain guns. 1.)The gun must be reliable. 2.) A person has to be able to draw from a holster swiftly ie. 4" or smaller barrel. 3.)The draw must not be impeded by snag features ie. external safeties & hammers. 4.)"PR" image or public intimidation factor. Why is the hammer cocked? Is there a need for a LEO to just carry a assault rifle (militant/police state) as apposed to a shot gun? Government agencies and their policies of safety derive from liabilities and worker comp cases to evaluate their risk management. No employer want's to be sued. OSHA doesn't regulate government agencies. Yes, 1911 styles did have a bad run in law enforcement. You however may never experience any of the above mention in your entire life and be totally safe in practice the same way a person uses the factory jack to change a flat tire on a vehicle. What if on mud or gravel road? LEOs have more to focus on than a holster draw in a hostile tactile situation that's more likely in close contact less than 20' away. If you're personally happy accepting all liability for your actions and firearm than great the story the gun just went off and you didn't mean it, is classic. If something unintentional happens it will cost more that you think it's worth and sometimes it can't ever be right if you don't get the bad guy. Thank you for posting your concerns here at GB.

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sandwarrior

February 01, 2011 16:58

As noted, the big difference is extra safeties. The big problem with the 80's series is it could 'lock-on' and create a full-auto incident. That actually happened. Unique to the 80's series because of the trigger safety. What keeps it from going off without pulling the trigger, can keep it firing without pulling the trigger, i.e. letting go of the trigger.

The series 80 is the real culprit and has been most 'banned' from LE. Also, you'll note the Glock and Sig have an internal firing mechanism much like a rifle, with a sear-release on a firing pin rather than a 'hammer-struck' firing pin. Everything has it's issues. Glocks will fire even when the case isn't fully chambered. The rifling in the barrel precludes using ANY lead. After one use it's 'do so at your own risk'.

Personally, I carry a CZ. with a DA/SA configuration there is NO going off without pulling the trigger. And the ONLY thing that has kept it from firing were handloads not fully resized. Other than that, it has fed and fired without fail. There are 1911 style pistols that have DA/SA and those are the ones I recommend. Smith and Wesson make them too.

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Colt 70 vs 80

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