Winchester 1892 Continued
You might be okay yet on a legitimate complaint. Consider the "fact" that the seller described the graded condition as Very Good. Also consider the "fact" that the NRA Grading Criteria requires that it have "original metal surfaces" which it does not have due to the holes, and the Standard Catalog of Firearms Grading Grading System require that the piece graded as Very Good be 100% original, but may have some small repairs, alterations, or additions of any kind. Technically speaking, drilled holes represent a a major alteration, unless they are almost non-existent. Typical holes made for sights and scope mountings are considered a major alteration. So, basically, what the seller did is "clearly" misrepresent the graded condition of the rifle according to the foregoing grading standards. I'd call him on it.
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I'm with Kimi, hang him high. We don't need that kind on GB. Puts a bad light on everyone.
W.D.0 -
Unless the seller described the condition speciffically as NRA Graded "very good," then no fraud occurred. It is up to the bidder to clarify the grading standard the seller used in grading the condition of the gun because unfortunately, as a buyer you can't assume anything.
As been stated, the seller no doubt left out some important details concerning the rifle, but from what I read of the description, it falls short of fraud. If he doesn't voluntarily take back the rifle, beyond a negative feedback I don't see any other recourse.0 -
Here's the auction: He noted no cracks in wood and the strength of the lands of the barrel. If he is that knowlegable it is my opinion he intentionally ommited the drilled barrels in order to decieve and attain a higher price. Stick him!
"I HAVE NICE WINCHESTER TAKEDOWN 1892 25-20 RIFLE.THIS GUN IS IN VERY GOOD CONDITION NO CRACKS IN THE WOOD.HAS A VERY NICE BORE WITH GOOD STRONG LANDINGS.MUST TO FFL OR C&R.PAYMENTS EXCEPTED ARE MONEY ORDERS,BANK CHECKS,PERSONAL CHECKS(ALLOW 10 BANKING DAYS TO CLEAR).GOOD LUCK.BUYER PAYS FLAT FEE OF 35.00 FOR INSURED SHIPPING. "
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=2086907240 -
quote:Originally posted by Spider7115
If the seller had expressly stated that there were no alterations to the originality of the gun, such as holes drilled in the barrel, his description would be fraudulent. However, as he cited no official sources such as NRA guidelines, his description of "very good condition" is his opinion and would most likely be legally considered to be "puffing".
I agree that his omission was both deceptive and intentional. It's a lesson for all of us to ask more questions and demand more pictures before we spend our hard-earned money. However, I don't think you would be successful in a fraud claim. Still, a big, fat "F" with an explanation is definitely warranted, as well as a formal complaint to GB Support.
Hi Spider: Legal in the sense of the law, maybe, maybe not, who in the world would want to go there to begin with?! I'd simply call the party and see if I could arrange to have it worked out between us, but again that's just me...if not, the possibilty exists that I might take it to support and state my case. I agree with the "F" rating that you affix to this problem.
Anyway, much has been written about how firearms that have been drilled for the mounting of scopes and how such an alteration will reduce value. To me, if I came across a rifle that I "wanted" and it had its barrel drilled to accommodate a scope I'd figure the graded condition and reduce my estimation of its value by 25%, and then I would add for the cost of any such gunsmith work that has to do with such work, to include, the cost of mounts and screws if they were on it. Now, if the receiver had been drilled I'd deduct at least 50% off the top of my best estimation and go from there, but that's just me. Other factors would figure in as to adding or subtracting from the value I assign it based upon the particular type firearm, it's popularity among collectors, hunters, etc.0 -
quote:Originally posted by kimi
Hi Spider: Legal in the sense of the law, maybe, maybe not, who in the world would want to go there to begin with?! I'd simply call the party and see if I could arrange to have it worked out between us, but again that's just me...if not, the possibilty exists that I might take it to support and state my case. I agree with the "F" rating that you affix to this problem.
Anyway, much has been written about how firearms that have been drilled for the mounting of scopes and how such an alteration will reduce value. To me, if I came across a rifle that I "wanted" and it had its barrel drilled to accommodate a scope I'd figure the graded condition and reduce my estimation of its value by 25%, and then I would add for the cost of any such gunsmith work that has to do with such work, to include, the cost of mounts and screws if they were on it. Now, if the receiver had been drilled I'd deduct at least 50% off the top of my best estimation and go from there, but that's just me. Other factors would figure in as to adding or subtracting from the value I assign it based upon the particular type firearm, it's popularity among collectors, hunters, etc.
+ Many, Kimi.
If I had paid the price for an original condition firearm, I would be upset, but in this case take my lumps. Picked up a very nice Krag factory Carbine last year for around $ 800.00 IIRC. It had been tapped for a scope, which justified the low price. Had I spent twice that expecting an original, I would have been pissed.
Seller is probably a tool, particularly if he will not take the rifle back if asked, and would deserve negative feedback. Buyer, however, made a mistake if he spent more for the rifle than it was worth without asking the important questions.0 -
One other thing to consider. If a buyer gets a gun he wants to use as a shooter and not as a collectible, then having already been drilled and tapped for a scope may actually benefit the buyer. It saves him paying a gunsmith for the same alteration. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
quote:Originally posted by kimi
Hi Spider: Legal in the sense of the law, maybe, maybe not, who in the world would want to go there to begin with?! I'd simply call the party and see if I could arrange to have it worked out between us, but again that's just me...if not, the possibilty exists that I might take it to support and state my case. I agree with the "F" rating that you affix to this problem.
Anyway, much has been written about how firearms that have been drilled for the mounting of scopes and how such an alteration will reduce value. To me, if I came across a rifle that I "wanted" and it had its barrel drilled to accommodate a scope I'd figure the graded condition and reduce my estimation of its value by 25%, and then I would add for the cost of any such gunsmith work that has to do with such work, to include, the cost of mounts and screws if they were on it. Now, if the receiver had been drilled I'd deduct at least 50% off the top of my best estimation and go from there, but that's just me. Other factors would figure in as to adding or subtracting from the value I assign it based upon the particular type firearm, it's popularity among collectors, hunters, etc.
+ Many, Kimi.
If I had paid the price for an original condition firearm, I would be upset, but in this case take my lumps. Picked up a very nice Krag factory Carbine last year for around $ 800.00 IIRC. It had been tapped for a scope, which justified the low price. Had I spent twice that expecting an original, I would have been pissed.
Seller is probably a tool, particularly if he will not take the rifle back if asked, and would deserve negative feedback. Buyer, however, made a mistake if he spent more for the rifle than it was worth without asking the important questions.
Exactly, Don. I could afford to take such a lump as this one, and have in the past, but some lumps can be really damaging due to not asking the right questions at the right time...and I almost went there once, but Bert intervened and the seller was a class act as well so everything ended up okay. (Thanks again, Bert![:D])0 -
Thanks guys for your replies. Like I said I'm ok with the rifle not real happy about it but not worth trying to send it back. If I knew the holes were there I would not have bid on it. What do you think the rifle would have been worth without the holes. I would have guessed $1400-$1600 If I would have paid that I would have been mad. 0
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