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+P Loads in a 1873 Winchester Replica?

Manyguns
I am buying a Chaparral 1873 Winchester replica and would like to do a little whitetail hunting with it. I am aware of the weakness of the toggle system, but would a few rounds a year (maybe less than 10) do damage to the rifle? Would standard factory ammo do the job? Well under 100 yard shooting. Yes, I know it's not the ideal gun, but I'd like to try it.
Thanks, Tom
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Comments

10 comments

Date Votes
  • Winston Bode
    You don't say what caliber, I would assume .45 Colt. I wouldn't think a few rounds would harm the action. I sure woulnd't feed it a steady diet of +P ammo. Standard .45 colt ammo should be plenty but I'd keep the range around 50 to 75 yards max.

    Bode
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  • Manyguns
    Sorry, yes, .45LC.
    Tom
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  • perry shooter
    Make sure your life insurance and health insurance is paid up . I for one would NEVER fire EVEN one +P load.in this design rifle . IMHO a 45 colt is already PUSHING the design limits and only made because of the better modern steel used. If the design with original steel was strong enough don't you think Winchester would have chambered their original Rifle in 45 Colt as a backup for colt revolvers in 45 Colt. The original 38/40 and 44/40 killed many a deer during their day If you want the thrill of hunting with a vintage rifle use a vintage rifle even if it is in a Replica. you only have TWO eyes and hands . . Just My $.02 YMMV.
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  • ruger41
    Personally I wouldn't do it-like perry said that isn't the strongest design. If you want a great hunting load that is standard pressure pick up some Hornady Leverevolution in .45 Colt or the Standard Pressure .45 Colt load from Buffalo Bore--or reload your own. It has a soft pointed polymer tip that is safe for leverguns. I use it a lot and it's great stuff. You said well under 100 yard shooting--you do NOT need +p for that at all--either the Factory ammo or a good cast bullet loaded to 900fps or so will kill your deer right now if you put the bullet in the right spot.
    http://www.hornady.com/store/45-Colt-225-gr-FTX-LEVERevolution/

    http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=45
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  • tsr1965
    We didn't get to the really strong REPEATING lever actions, until the advent of the 1886, and it's short action clone, the 1892. I would not use ANY +P's in that 1873 copy, especially in 45 Colt. The hot rodded 45 Colts are in a lot of cases, more than a 44 Remington Magnum. Like has been said, you have plenty of gun as it is, with the standard loads.

    Best
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  • Manyguns
    Thanks, that's what I needed to know.
    Tom
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  • beantownshootah
    quote:Originally posted by tsr1965
    We didn't get to the really strong REPEATING lever actions, until the advent of the 1886, and it's short action clone, the 1892. I would not use ANY +P's in that 1873 copy, especially in 45 Colt. The hot rodded 45 Colts are in a lot of cases, more than a 44 Remington Magnum. Like has been said, you have plenty of gun as it is, with the standard loads.

    Best


    Well to be clear a nominal .45LC+P should *NOT* be anywhere near as powerful as a .44 magnum round.

    The .45 LC is SAAMI rated at 14,000 PSI.

    As similar era blackpowder rounds its not a coincidence that the original calibers the 1873 lever were chambered in, the .45-40 and .38-40 rate at 13,000 and 14,000 PSI, respectively.

    So I don't see why if an original 19th century levergun could safely handle a .45-40 at 13,000 PSI why it wouldn't handle a .45LC at roughly the same pressure.

    Back on the original question, by convention, +P rounds are supposed to be only 10% more powerful than "ordinary" rounds of similar caliber, but the reality is that there is no SAAMI standard for .45LC +P rounds, and the rounds advertised as such are probably running a good bit hotter.

    According to this reference, the hotter of the +P rounds probably top out at around 25,000PSI.

    http://www.chuckhawks.com/high-pressure45.htm

    Now compare to .357 magnum which runs up to 35,000 PSI, and .44magnum which runs up to 36,000 PSI, both SIGNIFICANTLY higher pressures than factory loaded .45LC+P rounds.

    Why is that relevant? Because Chaparral arms *ALSO* makes an identical 1873 Winchester replica in .357 magnum. If their design/implementation were so weak, then these guns would blow up after one shot.

    So my take on this is if the Chaparral gun is strong enough to fire .357 magnums at 35,000 PSI, then it likely is strong enough to handle .45LC +P rounds at "only" 25,000-30,000 PSI.

    Is it? I don't know for sure. . . I doubt you're going to get the blessing of Chaparral arms on that, since the company is in Italy, and since there are no established standards for .45LC. They'll tell you the same as any other firearms maker. . .use only standard factory loads in their guns.

    Would I personally take the chance? I don't see a good reason to do that. If I want a gun running .44 magnum-like ballistics, then I'll just buy one in .44 magnum (or .454 Casull).

    Frankly, I don't see a lot of good reason to mess around with .45LC+P rounds *at all*.
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  • ruger41
    According to John Linebaugh the .45 Colt can be loaded upwards of 50,000 CUP--granted these are probably handloads and not factory --supposedly some of Buffalo Bore's +p is in the 40,000 CUP rangebut I darn sure don't want to try anything like those out in a 1873 Winchester action. http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/high_pressure_loads.htm
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  • Hawk Carse
    quote:So my take on this is if the Chaparral gun is strong enough to fire .357 magnums at 35,000 PSI, then it likely is strong enough to handle .45LC +P rounds at "only" 25,000-30,000 PSI.

    The problem is, the load on the locking system is the chamber pressure times the case head area. Just using calibers for convenience, .45 is 60% larger area than .357, so the stress would be that much greater. I don't think the gun will blow up but it will be pounded.

    A full charge of black powder will give about 1000 fps in a 7 1/2" revolver, I don't know what it will do in a rifle. Probably the 1250 fps of a .44-40.
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  • tsr1965
    quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
    quote:Originally posted by tsr1965
    We didn't get to the really strong REPEATING lever actions, until the advent of the 1886, and it's short action clone, the 1892. I would not use ANY +P's in that 1873 copy, especially in 45 Colt. The hot rodded 45 Colts are in a lot of cases, more than a 44 Remington Magnum. Like has been said, you have plenty of gun as it is, with the standard loads.

    Best


    Well to be clear a nominal .45LC+P should *NOT* be anywhere near as powerful as a .44 magnum round.

    The .45 LC is SAAMI rated at 14,000 PSI.

    As similar era blackpowder rounds its not a coincidence that the original calibers the 1873 lever were chambered in, the .45-40 and .38-40 rate at 13,000 and 14,000 PSI, respectively.

    So I don't see why if an original 19th century levergun could safely handle a .45-40 at 13,000 PSI why it wouldn't handle a .45LC at roughly the same pressure.

    Back on the original question, by convention, +P rounds are supposed to be only 10% more powerful than "ordinary" rounds of similar caliber, but the reality is that there is no SAAMI standard for .45LC +P rounds, and the rounds advertised as such are probably running a good bit hotter.

    According to this reference, the hotter of the +P rounds probably top out at around 25,000PSI.

    http://www.chuckhawks.com/high-pressure45.htm

    Now compare to .357 magnum which runs up to 35,000 PSI, and .44magnum which runs up to 36,000 PSI, both SIGNIFICANTLY higher pressures than factory loaded .45LC+P rounds.

    Why is that relevant? Because Chaparral arms *ALSO* makes an identical 1873 Winchester replica in .357 magnum. If their design/implementation were so weak, then these guns would blow up after one shot.

    So my take on this is if the Chaparral gun is strong enough to fire .357 magnums at 35,000 PSI, then it likely is strong enough to handle .45LC +P rounds at "only" 25,000-30,000 PSI.

    Is it? I don't know for sure. . . I doubt you're going to get the blessing of Chaparral arms on that, since the company is in Italy, and since there are no established standards for .45LC. They'll tell you the same as any other firearms maker. . .use only standard factory loads in their guns.

    Would I personally take the chance? I don't see a good reason to do that. If I want a gun running .44 magnum-like ballistics, then I'll just buy one in .44 magnum (or .454 Casull).

    Frankly, I don't see a lot of good reason to mess around with .45LC+P rounds *at all*.


    My good friend, I think you need to research some more of the rocks and dynamite loads that are available from the high end factory loads like Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, and other's. They have energy figures near 454 Casull(standard loads). By no means should these be put in an 1873 Winchester, or any modern replica of it. To do so, could warrant a visit to you...professionally speaking. No sense in pushing the wire.

    The reason they get away with the 357 Magnum, is this thing called force, or thrust. There is not as many square inches of surface area in a 357 as a 45 Colt or 44 Magnum. All that PSIG is converted back into force when it meets surface area to do so. The 1892 design is much more robust than the 1873.

    Best
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