Win 1873 14" barrel illegal
My Winchester Factory Letter does not specify the length of the barrel when shipped in 1888 so dealers tell me it is illegal in Texas to own it since it is shorter than 16". I have owned it for about 60 years now I bought it in a gunshop in Nacogdoches and am sure it has not been cut-off but why couldn't it be original from the factory? What should I do to make it legal?
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What does the letter say, exactly? 0 -
I know there were factory original Model 1873 carbines with 15 inch barrels, but I'm not personally aware of any with 14 inch barrels; I'm sure there probably are. It is usually noted in the factory records, but that's not always the case; personal experience.
Regardless, even if the gun is an antique and has an original 14 inch barrel, the pre 1899 status doesn't trump the Federal law governing barrel lengths less than 16 inches. However, if the Winchester is examined and can be declared factory original to the satisfaction of the BATF, they will then classify the Winchester as a Curio or Relic making it legal to own. In the old days there were several folks that could provide that service, send a letter to the BATF stating originality, and the BATF would in turn reclassify the gun as C&R. However, I think that might have changed and perhaps the BATF now needs to examine the gun themselves; tricky if they don't think it is original.
Added: The thing that is somewhat troubling about your Model 73 with a 14 inch barrel is that it letters as a rifle; in my opinion this would be a very odd barrel length for a Model 73 rifle.
What is the length of the fore end wood?
Can you post a picture of just the forward end of the barrel that shows the barrel, magazine tube, front sight and placement, and magazine tube hanger?
Can you post a picture of just the rear of the barrel showing the forward part of the receiver, rear sight and placement, and barrel markings?0 -
My factory letter states: The manufacture's data for Model 1873, serial number 267164, as extracted from the original Winchester records housed in the museum are as follows: Type: Rifle, Caliber: 32, Barrel Type: Octagon, Trigger: Plain, Recieved in warehouse on June 16, 1888, Shipped from warehouse on August 1, 1888, Order number 10414, No other information is available for this serial number.
quote:Originally posted by cartod
What does the letter say, exactly?0 -
Right now there are two Win 1873 round barrel rifles posted on GunBroker, one is 14" and the other 15" both at about $7,000. My expert friends advise me to purchase a longer barrel to make it legal. It would not be worth much then for sure.
quote:Originally posted by Old-Colts
I know there were factory original Model 1873 carbines with 15 inch barrels, but I'm not personally aware of any with 14 inch barrels; I'm sure there probably are. It is usually noted in the factory records, but that's not always the case; personal experience.
Regardless, even if the gun is an antique and has an original 14 inch barrel, the pre 1899 status doesn't trump the Federal law governing barrel lengths less than 16 inches. However, if the Winchester is examined and can be declared factory original to the satisfaction of the BATF, they will then classify the Winchester as a Curio or Relic making it legal to own. In the old days there were several folks that could provide that service, send a letter to the BATF stating originality, and the BATF would in turn reclassify the gun as C&R. However, I think that might have changed and perhaps the BATF now needs to examine the gun themselves; tricky if they don't think it is original.0 -
Old-Colts has given you sound advice.
As it stands now, your gun is contraband; it could be seized by any LEO.
If ATF decides that it has been altered, they will seize it. But, it's really worth nothing now because of the contraband status.
If ATF decides that it is original, they will give you a letter that will give it substantial value.
You failed to give us a link to the 2 rifles you refer to. You also failed to tell us what the "$7,000" price is, "asking" or "bid". You also failed to tell us if either rifle has documentation showing them to be legal, which makes a big difference. So, we can't relate them to your rifle.
Neal0 -
Sorry about that, the website is http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=210393304
Buy now for $6995.00, current bid $100. The seller has the factory letters stating the barrel lengths.
Contraband does not sound good.
quote:Originally posted by nmyers
Old-Colts has given you sound advice.
As it stands now, your gun is contraband; it could be seized by any LEO.
If ATF decides that it has been altered, they will seize it. But, it's really worth nothing now because of the contraband status.
If ATF decides that it is original, they will give you a letter that will give it substantial value.
You failed to give us a link to the 2 rifles you refer to. You also failed to tell us what the "$7,000" price is, "asking" or "bid". You also failed to tell us if either rifle has documentation showing them to be legal, which makes a big difference. So, we can't relate them to your rifle.
Neal0 -
The BATFE has removed SOME short barreled Winchesters from the National Firearms Act as Antiques, and others as Curio & Relic Arms. Do a Google search for batf curio relic, and then look over to the right for the PDF files. There is at least ONE 14 inch model 1873 on that list- but not with that serial number. C&P-
Winchester Model 1873 carbine, cal. .32-20 WCF, with 15-inch barrel, S/N 382027.
Winchester Model 1873 carbine, cal. .38-40 WCF, with 14-inch barrel, S/N 514709.
* Winchester Model 1873, caliber .44 WCF, S/Ns 131592A and 92835A, with 15-inch barrel.
* Winchester Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44-40 WCF, with 15-inch barrel, S/Ns 69450, 92537, 92842A, 127884,
44
SECTION IIIA
131762A, 145337A, 198040B, 234795B, 235014B, 247094B, 263826B, 336514B, 336549,
380061, 486139B.
You could probably get the BATFE to add this one to the exempt list- but I would have that settled before taking possession.0 -
DOM 1888. Is this a firearm? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Old-Colts
Regardless, even if the gun is an antique and has an original 14 inch barrel, the pre 1899 status doesn't trump the Federal law governing barrel lengths less than 16 inches.
You are wrong... the "Antique" status does indeed trump the requirement for a 16" (or longer) barrel. You fellows who believe otherwise need to study your regulations better.
The BATFE has clearly stated (in writing) that pre-1899 manufactured "short-barreled" rifles are exempt from the NFA requirement concerning the barrel length, as they are classified as "Antique". The text below was copied from ATF Publication 5300.11, Revised December 2007.
"SECTION IIIA: Weapons Removed From The NFA As Collector's
Items And Removed From the GCA As Antiques.
The following firearms were removed from the NFA as collector's items and classified as curios or relics under 18 U.S.C.
Chapter 44. However, because they are antiques as defined in Chapter 44, they should not have been classified as curios
or relics. Because they are no longer NFA weapons and are antiques under Chapter 44, they are not subject to GCA
provisions."0 -
quote:Originally posted by galterio
My Winchester Factory Letter does not specify the length of the barrel when shipped in 1888 so dealers tell me it is illegal in Texas to own it since it is shorter than 16". I have owned it for about 60 years now I bought it in a gunshop in Nacogdoches and am sure it has not been cut-off but why couldn't it be original from the factory? What should I do to make it legal?
In regards to your Model 1873, if the factory ledgers (factory letter) did not list the barrel length, that indicates that the barrel was originally 24-inches long. As a "modified" or "altered" antique, it is questionable if it is legal. You can do one of several things;
1. Replace the barrel with one that is at least 16-inches long.
2. Send it to the BATFE for a ruling (keeping in mind that you might not get it back if the ruling is not favorable).
3. Have the Cody Firearms Musuem Research Office recheck the records.
Winchester did make a small number of Model 1873s with 14-inch barrels.
There is a possibility that I can identify if the barrel is original, but it will require seeing several clear close-up pictures of the barrel, front sight, magazine tube & retaining ring, etc.0 -
quote:Originally posted by galterio
Sorry about that, the website is http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=210393304
Buy now for $6995.00, current bid $100. The seller has the factory letters stating the barrel lengths.
The Model 1873 in that auction requires a BATFE clearance letter to be legal to own (unless it is already in the Curio & Relic listing on the BATFE website). The letter would be very easy to obtain, as it has a Factory letter that authenticates the barrel length.0 -
quote:Originally posted by bill2740
DOM 1888. Is this a firearm?
No, legally it is not.0 -
Bert, re "The BATFE has clearly stated (in writing) that pre-1899 manufactured "short-barreled" rifles are exempt from the NFA requirement concerning the barrel length, as they are classified as "Antique. Do you mean ORIGINAL FACTORY short barrelled rifles? You can not shorten pre-1899 cartridge rifles or shotguns below the required 16 & 18 inches. If someone were to saw off some pre-1899 cartridge firing shotguns below 18" ATF would get involved, as would most states. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by capgun
Bert, re "The BATFE has clearly stated (in writing) that pre-1899 manufactured "short-barreled" rifles are exempt from the NFA requirement concerning the barrel length, as they are classified as "Antique. Do you mean ORIGINAL FACTORY short barrelled rifles? You can not shorten pre-1899 cartridge rifles or shotguns below the required 16 & 18 inches. If someone were to saw off some pre-1899 cartridge firing shotguns below 18" ATF would get involved, as would most states.
Yes, I mean "factory original", and I stated that in my second reply in this topic string above. I am fully aware that you can not alter a firearm, even if it is antique.0 -
I want to thank everyone for responding. This shows how muddy the waters are with short barrels. My next question is:
Could my Win 1873 original owner have purchased a 14" barrel from Winchester in 1888 or a few years later to replace the 24" barrel on my gun? I was told by my gun shop 60 years ago (I was 12 or 13 then) that this gun was used as a stagecoach guard's weapon. Would it make any sense that they would want a shorter rifle to hide at their feet? I don't even know when stagecoaches stopped running! Kid's believe anything so I have always told everyone that it was a stagecoach guard's gun.
I believe I read that Winchester sold replacement barrels back then.
Bert - I will try to get some closeup photos of my rifle to post here. I can lay it on my scanner but not sure how that will turn out but it should be as close as can be done.0 -
quote:Originally posted by galterio
I want to thank everyone for responding. This shows how muddy the waters are with short barrels. My next question is:
Could my Win 1873 original owner have purchased a 14" barrel from Winchester in 1888 or a few years later to replace the 24" barrel on my gun? I was told by my gun shop 60 years ago (I was 12 or 13 then) that this gun was used as a stagecoach guard's weapon. Would it make any sense that they would want a shorter rifle to hide at their feet? I don't even know when stagecoaches stopped running! Kid's believe anything so I have always told everyone that it was a stagecoach guard's gun.
I believe I read that Winchester sold replacement barrels back then.
Bert - I will try to get some closeup photos of my rifle to post here. I can lay it on my scanner but not sure how that will turn out but it should be as close as can be done.
The scanner is not going to work. Please obtain/borrow an decent quality digital camera.
The stagecoach story is just that... it is extremely doubtful that a 32 WCF would have been used when the more powerful 44 W.C.F. was much more common and available.
I also have doubts that a 14-inch replacement 32 W.C.F. barrel was ordered and used to replace the original 24-inch barrel.0
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