US Springfield Trapdoor: Part 2
Re: http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=494148
I respect the fact that none of us can give an accurate assessment of any firearm without a "hands on" inspection but I don't believe the rifle shown in the above thread is as bad as some people think. It has all of the correct parts and the wood is not cracked or broken. The Buffington sight is broken but these are easily replaced.
Much of what appears to be rust and pitting on some parts is actually a heavy buildup of creosote from spending years hanging over a fireplace. That smoky buildup can make a gun look much worse than it is but sometimes preserves the finish underneath. Back in the 1970's, a friend of mine picked up a Civil War .58 caliber Remington "Zouave" that hung over a fireplace for over 50 years. It looked like a 4-foot-long piece of charcoal. My friend carefully, slowly and professionally cleaned it up and that gun looked nearly mint when he was finished (many "Zouaves" were unissued).
I've owned nearly 100 Trapdoor Springfields over the years and had some much worse than the one pictured. I would bet that rifle would clean up quite nicely with a lot of patience and elbow grease and once again be restored to shooting condition and you wouldn't even know it was the same gun. JMO.
I respect the fact that none of us can give an accurate assessment of any firearm without a "hands on" inspection but I don't believe the rifle shown in the above thread is as bad as some people think. It has all of the correct parts and the wood is not cracked or broken. The Buffington sight is broken but these are easily replaced.
Much of what appears to be rust and pitting on some parts is actually a heavy buildup of creosote from spending years hanging over a fireplace. That smoky buildup can make a gun look much worse than it is but sometimes preserves the finish underneath. Back in the 1970's, a friend of mine picked up a Civil War .58 caliber Remington "Zouave" that hung over a fireplace for over 50 years. It looked like a 4-foot-long piece of charcoal. My friend carefully, slowly and professionally cleaned it up and that gun looked nearly mint when he was finished (many "Zouaves" were unissued).
I've owned nearly 100 Trapdoor Springfields over the years and had some much worse than the one pictured. I would bet that rifle would clean up quite nicely with a lot of patience and elbow grease and once again be restored to shooting condition and you wouldn't even know it was the same gun. JMO.
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Wow. I logged on and the thread was locked,thought I was on another site. As I mentioned my wife asked what the value was,she actually typed it in,because she helped me set up photobucket. The rifle hung above our fireplace for a couple years and for at least 20 years that I was around it was in an old gun cabinet upstairs. To me it's just a wall hanger but much more appreciated since I now have some working knowledge about it.
Thanks again,0 -
This 1884 I have was close to the same condition as the one you have when I started restoring it. The only thing I worried about when I was given the rifle was the bore and it cleaned up great except for some pitting at the bore from not getting clean properly over the years. I fire and clean the rifle once a year and have not found any rust return.
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll7/emmetted/DSCN0127.jpg
Emmett0 -
quote:Originally posted by Emmett Dunham
This 1884 I have was close to the same condition as the one you have when I started restoring it. The only thing I worried about when I was given the rifle was the bore and it cleaned up great except for some pitting at the bore from not getting clean properly over the years. I fire and clean the rifle once a year and have not found any rust return.
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll7/emmetted/DSCN0127.jpg
Emmett
Nice job, Emmett. Like the saying goes: "You can't judge a book by its soot!" [;)]0 -
Spider: I respect the time and experience you have in the trapdoor rifles, and I have or have had everything from a 2nd Allin conversion to the ramrod '84's with a few carbines in between and that chamber just looks like bad news. I respectfully submit that creosote is NOT ORANGE! Thats active rust in there and there's not much to do about it short of cleaning it up and living with the pitting left behind. That same appearance, to a lesser degree is also in the base of the trigger guard where the trigger goes through it up to the lockwork. Also, the bolt is pretty orange as well, and I am not sure there is a firing pin in the thing; at least I cant see it protruding from the rear of the bolt where another big mass of orange rust has adhered itself. It may clean up and make a nice wall hanger (I totally agree with the assesment of the wood...I see no cracks and the original color IS under there somewhere) but a collector it will never be. Hope it cleans up well for you, but consider not making it a shooter regardless! 0 -
quote:Originally posted by 1KYDSTR
Spider: I respect the time and experience you have in the trapdoor rifles, and I have or have had everything from a 2nd Allin conversion to the ramrod '84's with a few carbines in between and that chamber just looks like bad news. I respectfully submit that creosote is NOT ORANGE! Thats active rust in there and there's not much to do about it short of cleaning it up and living with the pitting left behind. That same appearance, to a lesser degree is also in the base of the trigger guard where the trigger goes through it up to the lockwork. Also, the bolt is pretty orange as well, and I am not sure there is a firing pin in the thing; at least I cant see it protruding from the rear of the bolt where another big mass of orange rust has adhered itself. It may clean up and make a nice wall hanger (I totally agree with the assesment of the wood...I see no cracks and the original color IS under there somewhere) but a collector it will never be. Hope it cleans up well for you, but consider not making it a shooter regardless!
I don't deny that there's rust on that old girl but the depth and severity of it demands a "hands-on" inspection. Still, I would love the opportunity to work on it. In any event, I guarantee it would look a helluva lot nicer than it does now!0 -
Wow,,,Spider,,If you can make that look good,,you have talent, which I DON'T doubt.[:)]...100 Springfields,,,[:I],,must have had a passion for them,,,and thats not a bad thing. 0 -
Spider: Yes indeed; hands on is the only real way to know and I bet you WOULD do a nice job cleaning the "'Ol Girl" up! The gentleman who bought my Second Allin sent me pictures after his refinnishing work was done and I was absolutely floored! I had lightly cleaned it and that took it cosmetically from a %50 er to the %70 area, but he steamed, redyed and oiled the stock and redid the black case on the bolt as well as reblueing everything originally rust blued. He re-inscribed the ESA cartouche and the P and swear to you it looked one step short of unissued (not done to be deceptive...the gun resides in his personal collection) !! The barrel on that one was lightly pitted at the throat; I think that would have been the only way to tell that it wasn't an unissued rifle! I've done my own chemical, rust and nitre blueing over the years, but wood restoration of that caliber is waaaaay out of my purview and skill set! Anyway, I agree that to tell the extent of the rust damage one would have to lay hands on the gun; it could be very shallow and look really nice in the end.
Tedot: On another note, do you see the base of the firing pin in there? Would not surprise me if it were not as many people took them out of the fireplace guns for "safetys" sake. I could not tell from the pics, but are the firing and inspeciton proofs there? The firing proof is a cursive P in front of the trigger guard on the bottom of the stock, and the inspectors cartouche will be on the left bolster of the stock beside the reciever area. Also, can you "chip" any of the gunk off of the metal with a finger nail? Since it is broken, I would try that on the Buffington rear sight first, and then also the hammer etc. Unless it was refurbed at an arsenal later, the eagle on the lockplate should be pretty sharp and it currently doesn't appear to be. Let us know if you could...
Jesus, Spider, it must have looked like an armory rack at Fort Hayes or something!!! I have never owned that many guns of one type let alone outfitted them correctly!?! I too remember the days of $25 enfields and $50 primo Mausers, but I was a little too young to order them myself. The one smart thing I did in the early 70's (I was 9) was get my Dad to send away for a Tokarev SVT 38 from Shotgun news for $75 of hard earned detassling money. I have a few SVT 40's still in the collection, but that 38 rarely even sees the light of day anymore. I think I invested pretty well on that one!!! And yes, I wish to hell I had a digital camera back in the day...the 1918 T-Gewher and accessories, the '34 Reichsbahnn, the 11-18 dated RI '03...all sold with no proof of my owning them. I have a few neat guns now, but MAN I wish I would have bucked up and kept them all somehow! Being young and poor sucks, and the money went to tuition for a college I never recieved a degree from but what hell, I gained valuable life experience...or so I'm told!!0 -
quote:Originally posted by mm8nambu
Wow,,,Spider,,If you can make that look good,,you have talent, which I DON'T doubt.[:)]...100 Springfields,,,[:I],,must have had a passion for them,,,and thats not a bad thing.
I always had quite the passion for those old Trapdoors but, at one time, they were all over the place and very affordable. When I was a kid, they were around $20-$25 each for nice ones and mint, unfired models could be found for $50 or less. I once had 30 rifles lined up in a standing rack with bayonets, slings and McKeever cartridge boxes with 10 carbines on a hanging wall rack above them. I still kick myself for not taking a picture!0 -
With all due respect, from what I can see from the pictures, the rifle will only ever be a wallhanger IMHO! Yes, there is a lot of old Fireplace soot but that soot is over top of some very heavy rust and heavily aged wood. Once the soot is removed and you are faced with all of that rust and still heavily aged wood, what would you do next? Since you have already started the task, you might as well strip the entire metal and wood and do a refinish on both, then hang it back on the wall. 0 -
O.K. I have looked high and low and I can't see any of the markings yall mentioned. Let me explain. This gun hung over our fireplace for a couple years ONLY. My wife says her great grandparents house which all her family eventually lived in never had a fireplace. I will take the rifle outside tomorrow with some 00 steel wool and WD-40 and check out the bore as well. The hammer will move back but will not lock in place and the trigger will not move at all. WD-40 tomorrow and elbow grease. 0
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