re: Nice SAA
Old-Colts, have you had a chance to think over a suggested value for the 1876 SAA in my previous thread?
You were right about the base pin, Colt made them individually up til 1903, should have the lathe centering hole, obviously a replacement.
Also heard from Colt today, gun was originally blue, nickel finish is period but not factory. Gun was sold to H&T Folsom, dealer in NYC Nov 18, 1876, one of 50 in lot.
BTW, I checked the loading gate screw as you suggested and it is not protruding below the frame, maybe it was at one time and someone tightened the trigger guard screws causing the bow and gap between the frame and trigger guard.
You were right about the base pin, Colt made them individually up til 1903, should have the lathe centering hole, obviously a replacement.
Also heard from Colt today, gun was originally blue, nickel finish is period but not factory. Gun was sold to H&T Folsom, dealer in NYC Nov 18, 1876, one of 50 in lot.
BTW, I checked the loading gate screw as you suggested and it is not protruding below the frame, maybe it was at one time and someone tightened the trigger guard screws causing the bow and gap between the frame and trigger guard.
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quote:Originally posted by recoilnut
Also heard from Colt today, gun was originally blue, nickel finish is period but not factory. Gun was sold to H&T Folsom, dealer in NYC Nov 18, 1876, one of 50 in lot.Wow, the finish sure fooled me!!!!!!! Great work by whoever did it! I guess I was correct on one thing; I don't know very much when it comes to nickel finishes!! [:D]
By the way, even though some books indicate that the base pin with a hole was used until 1903, that is wrong. It ended sometime around 1890, but I can't recall exactly when.
Edit 1: I would recommend that you find a knowledgeable Single Action collector to examine this gun in person. The Colt records are pretty accurate, but errors occasionally exist. Have someone examine this gun to confirm that it has been refinished. It might even be a very early factory refinish and not listed as being returned next to the original record.0 -
Old-Colts
The opinion on the finish did come from a knowledgeable collector, though I don't think there'd be any way to confirm if it was factory if it's not in the Colt records.
If base pins were hand made until 1890 that still means this is a replacement. Colt wasn't helpful about that.
Thanks again for your opinions, obviously I'm trying to get a value range from several sources before I list this gun for sale.0 -
Old-Colts, how much do you think this gun is worth to a collector? On an auction site? Thanks 0 -
I apologize for not getting back sooner, but before I answer your question, and I will, I'm going to send a friend of mine the link to your original post; I just checked and your photos are still accessible. He is much more knowledgeable when it comes to nickel guns; he likes them, I don't, hence my reluctance when it comes to judging the originality of nickel Single Actions. Despite your letter to the contrary, I'm still not sure your gun isn't original, but I think he will know for sure!
Keep checking back, he or I will respond to one of your threads; I value his opinion. He has been collecting Single Actions as long as I have, but he has been both a collector and dealer and is much better at judging nickel guns.
Bill
Added: Tom, I certainly will. I just E-mailed my friend and gave him the links. He will either post his assessment to this thread or I will post it for him. When it comes to nickel guns, I trust his judgment and expertise much more than mine!
Added: I heard from the friend I asked to look at the pictures of your Colt and here is his response:
I don't have a lot to add to the subject but to say that you see a lot of those early single actions that have that great old nickel finish that letter blued but I believe that nickel wasn't really a factory option on the early ones and usually you see them shipped to one of the "allies" that I believe had them nickeled when they were new. It's kind of like those nickeled U.S. guns that are really sharp. Somehow they made their way from the military to the civilian market and got nickeled or perhaps they were rejected and ended up going civilian. You see sharp corners and markings because they were probably hand prepared for the nickeling so they weren't butchered with a big buffing wheel.
When they look as nice as the one pictured, I never really worry about if they letter blue since they are within the first 3 or 4 years of production and most real students understand that it's not a "re-nickeled" gun per se.
Value? My best guess is probably in the $3500 to $4000 range but that's just a gut guess. I like nickeled guns myself but they are generally harder to sell and bring less money than the same percentage of blue and case by a long shot.
My (Old-Colts) personal opinion of value, given what the letter states, follows my friend's; so I think for this Single Action the range of $3500 to $4500 is very realistic. If I found this particular gun on a table and priced in that range I'd probably buy it because of its condition and early serial number.
If you really want to sell it, put it on auction, disclose everything, and put a price on it that you'd be willing to sell it at and see what happens. If you price it in the range that's been mentioned, it will probably sell, perhaps for more than the asking price!
Added: Tom, there are a few categories of refinished Single Actions that while they may not command the same price as they would if they were in the same configuration as they left the factory; are still desirable to collectors and retain significant value. One example is a U.S. Single Action that was part of a Colt "Buy Back". In order for Colt to resell these on the civilian market it appears that the accepted method of demilitarization was for Colt to refinish them in nickel and replace the cartouche stamped stocks with one piece walnut, ivory, or pearl; they still retained the U.S. and other inspector marks. Another example is along the lines of this one; Single Actions sold to any of the so-called Colt Allies; there were 5 of them. The OP mentioned that it went to H. & T. Folsom, but I suspect he misunderstood the Colt employee and it went to H. & D. Folsom, one of the 5 Allies at that time. Usually a Single Action that went to them with the intentions of being finished or engraved by them would be shipped "In the Soft" and noted in Colt's shipping records. However, I suspect they would change a gun, if necessary, to meet their customer's requirements. That's probably how some of these guns that letter as "Blue and Case", and show no signs of being refinished, are now wearing that nice old nickel from that period.
The 5 Allies had a lot of buying power back then and bought a lot of guns from Colt during the 1875-1876 period; at around $10.50 each. H. & D. Folsom alone purchased 5,120 revolvers from Colt through 1895 according to one reference book.
Value of that Single Action if it was still wearing blue and case colors and in that condition; "a bunch", although I'm not sure I can quantify "a bunch"; but I do have some idea!!!!! [:D]
Hope this helps, but it is just my opinion!0 -
bill, please post the final "verdict", i'm always eager to learn
thanks
tom
EDIT:
so it's a refinish, but acceptable to collectors as original?
just out of curiosity, what would a lettered blue/case saa in this condition bring?
thanks
tom
EDIT 2;
bill thank you for explaining that to me. i had no idea.0 -
O/C...Further input:
I can recall a [period] tin-type, or glass-acid photo of an Army encampment whereby there were several Indian Scouts brandishing (for the photo?) their "Newly issued Nickle plated revolvers". That was the actual caption hand written on the photo, as best as I can recall.
Could this be one of them? The guns in the photo were SAA 7 1/2in barreled nickle plated sidearms.
Only thing I can't nail down is the time reference to the photo. Any ideas? Thanks, Joe
Photo Added 1/15/11
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We discussed this revolver at length in the General Discussion forum:
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=493195
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=494306
We agreed that its possible the gun was returned to Colt for plating and not properly recorded or the original factory ledger regarding finish is in error. It looks like a factory finish to me but, if not, it's was certainly well-done and of the period. Still, without provenance, its true origin is left to the opinion of experts but will remain opinion nonetheless. Hopefully, Old Colt's friend can shed further light on the matter.
Maybe it would be worth sending the gun to John Kopec for a written opinion as his letters carry a lot of weight in the collecting world.0 -
Thanks again everyone for your inputs. A local appraiser agrees that it may have been refininshed by the factory at request of dealer. About the Indian Scouts with nickel plated revolvers, wouldn't they still have the US stamps and inspector marks? This gun does not. Your price estimate is right on, the $4000 range is what several other appraisers have recommended.Just have to make up my mind whether to sell or not. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by givette
O/C...Further input:
I can recall a [period] tin-type, or glass-acid photo of an Army encampment whereby there were several Indian Scouts brandishing (for the photo?) their "Newly issued Nickle plated revolvers". That was the actual caption hand written on the photo, as best as I can recall.
Could this be one of them? The guns in the photo were SAA 7 1/2in barreled nickle plated sidearms.
Only thing I can't nail down is the time reference to the photo. Any ideas? Thanks, JoeJoe,
I'd almost bet that the photo you are referring to is the one of Custer and his Indian Scouts that was taken during the Expedition into the Black Hills, sure sounds like it. In that photograph the Scouts appear to be holding nickeled 7 1/2 barrel, presumably Colt Cavalry revolvers. This photo is the one that helped establish the now famous Indian Scout nickeled U.S. Cavalry revolver theory among some collectors. Without going into all of the studies of John Kopec and others regarding the existence of nickeled U.S. Cavalry revolvers being issued in that configuration; the conclusion is there is no documentation that substantiates the existence of such revolvers. True, there are nickeled Colt Single Action Army Revolvers with the U.S. stamp and all proper sub stamps, but all evidence suggest they were nickel plated at some point after Colt shipped them to the government as blue and case hardened revolvers. Colt's "buy back" from the government and subsequent conversion to a civilian configuration (nickeled) is one reason they are found today and I've written about that process in the post above.
However, regarding the photographs that collectors point to as proof, Kopec explains it this way; "Since photographic techniques had not then evolved to the point they are today, we find that most smooth surfaces reflected light in these early photographs and appeared to be nickeled." Kopec continues regarding the Custer and Scouts photograph; "This may be verified by observing the rifle and other accouterments in this same photo which also appear to be nickeled. Authorities on early photographic techniques agree that here most assuredly lies the answer to the mystery of these nickel appearing revolvers." I suspect that the hand written captions on these old photos happened long after the photo was taken and no direct knowledge of the scene went into the writing.
For what it is worth, I agree with Kopec. The quotes were taken from "A Study of the Colt Single Action Army Revolver". His subsequent book, 18 years later, with Sterling Finn titled "Cavalry & Artillery Revolvers, a Continuing Study" draws the same conclusion after much more study and examination of revolvers.
Also, I don't believe this is one of those revolvers; it doesn't have the U.S. stamp and the revolver is a little later than that particular campaign if that's the one you are referring to.
Hope this helps!
Bill
recoilnut - If you decide to sell this Single Action and if you list it on the auction side, please post here about it being listed and give us a link. I'm sure there are some of us here that would be interested in this great old Single Action!! [:)]
Joe - that's the photo I was referring to.0
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