ATF sticks it to FFLs again. THIS IS IMPORTANT!
The oft-bandied "end of the CLEO requirement" gleefully tossed around on blogs and by folks who presume to be "in the know", is, as of now, fiction.
However, the "quid pro quo" they (ATF) were to receive for the elimination of the anachronistic CLEO endorsement, has been quietly added to the regs and is now a landmine for the unwary FFL/SOT 2-3.
The presumed changes were to be thus: The CLEO signature requirement was to end, with approval by DOJ attorneys (who are probably too busy covering asses and dodging blame for Fast and Furious and it's myriad and related illegal outrages), and the ATF was to get, in return, a "gimme". That gimme was a NICS check upon transfer of an NFA device to the Grantor/Trustee of a Trust, or the Managing Member of an LLC, Corp., LLP etc...
Keep in mind that MOST FFLs (and most IOIs for that matter) have never heard of the "Trust/Corp Affidavit" requirement for the final transfer of an NFA item to those types of individuals.
For those of you who don't know, it works like this. Since everyone is doing Trusts for NFA transfers these days, we'll use it as an example, a Corp/LLC is similar tho.
NFA item transfer from FFL/SOT is approved to "XXX Trust". ATF/NFA does a background check during this process on "Bob Smith, Grantor and Trustee of XXX Trust". When the Form 4, affixed with stamp signifying Transfer Tax paid is finally returned to FFL/SOT (running 7 months now, contrary to BS on the Internet, it isn't getting ANY faster) the FFL/SOT calls Bob Smith to come pick up his NFA item.
Bob Smith fills out a 4473, just like he were transferring a Title 1 firearm, and provides his info and ID. Box 22, Page 2 of the (NEWLY REVISED...AGAIN) 4473 states "No NICS check was required because transfer involved only NFA firearms". This is usually checked, because NFA has already done a background check on Bob Smith while they SAT ON THE DAMN FORMS FOR 7 MONTHS!
NOW...ATF has quietly introduced a new rule, one which we were supposed to have gotten something for...but instead, we get dick, just like usual.
9.12.1 NFA Transfers to other than individuals. Subsequent to the approval of an application
requesting to transfer an NFA firearm to, or on behalf of, a partnership, company, association,
trust, estate, or corporation, the authorized person picking up the firearm on behalf of, a
partnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation from the FFL must complete the
Form 4473 with his/her personal information and undergo a NICS check. See also, question P60
in the ATF FAQs.
ATF, playing dirty just like always...and of course, having enough foresight to add some stupid hispanic/not hispanic crap to the 4473 but saying NOTHING about this change.
Somedays I wonder why I'm still in this business. Anyone knows that ATF's goonish dullards could revoke any FFLs they wanted by finding obscure stuff that they never notified anyone of.
However, the "quid pro quo" they (ATF) were to receive for the elimination of the anachronistic CLEO endorsement, has been quietly added to the regs and is now a landmine for the unwary FFL/SOT 2-3.
The presumed changes were to be thus: The CLEO signature requirement was to end, with approval by DOJ attorneys (who are probably too busy covering asses and dodging blame for Fast and Furious and it's myriad and related illegal outrages), and the ATF was to get, in return, a "gimme". That gimme was a NICS check upon transfer of an NFA device to the Grantor/Trustee of a Trust, or the Managing Member of an LLC, Corp., LLP etc...
Keep in mind that MOST FFLs (and most IOIs for that matter) have never heard of the "Trust/Corp Affidavit" requirement for the final transfer of an NFA item to those types of individuals.
For those of you who don't know, it works like this. Since everyone is doing Trusts for NFA transfers these days, we'll use it as an example, a Corp/LLC is similar tho.
NFA item transfer from FFL/SOT is approved to "XXX Trust". ATF/NFA does a background check during this process on "Bob Smith, Grantor and Trustee of XXX Trust". When the Form 4, affixed with stamp signifying Transfer Tax paid is finally returned to FFL/SOT (running 7 months now, contrary to BS on the Internet, it isn't getting ANY faster) the FFL/SOT calls Bob Smith to come pick up his NFA item.
Bob Smith fills out a 4473, just like he were transferring a Title 1 firearm, and provides his info and ID. Box 22, Page 2 of the (NEWLY REVISED...AGAIN) 4473 states "No NICS check was required because transfer involved only NFA firearms". This is usually checked, because NFA has already done a background check on Bob Smith while they SAT ON THE DAMN FORMS FOR 7 MONTHS!
NOW...ATF has quietly introduced a new rule, one which we were supposed to have gotten something for...but instead, we get dick, just like usual.
9.12.1 NFA Transfers to other than individuals. Subsequent to the approval of an application
requesting to transfer an NFA firearm to, or on behalf of, a partnership, company, association,
trust, estate, or corporation, the authorized person picking up the firearm on behalf of, a
partnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation from the FFL must complete the
Form 4473 with his/her personal information and undergo a NICS check. See also, question P60
in the ATF FAQs.
ATF, playing dirty just like always...and of course, having enough foresight to add some stupid hispanic/not hispanic crap to the 4473 but saying NOTHING about this change.
Somedays I wonder why I'm still in this business. Anyone knows that ATF's goonish dullards could revoke any FFLs they wanted by finding obscure stuff that they never notified anyone of.
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DRP-AZ,
Thank you for posting this information. It's imperative that all of us read and understand this, in order to stay on top of the actions (and inactions) of our Federal Gubmint branches.
I haven't had time to check my mail this week so I'll take a peek this morning.
Thanks!
Best.0 -
Soo... how is this different from a trust, corporation, etc. ad nauseum purchasing a non-NFA item? Or a Regular Joe buying a non-NFA item?
Or is it dependent on which state, for example here in Fl. during the weekday an answer is really quick... on a weekend with multiple gun shows around, it will take a LONG time to get someone on the phone, and a longer pause while actually looking up the info.
I guess I'm asking, are you PO'd because they slipped in a rule change, or are you PO'd about the actual effect of the rule change?0 -
Thanks for the info. I have a NFA item that I sent the trust in at least 4-5 months back. I know they were BSing everone in the 6 month time frame. I expect mine to take 9 months now. That is a good reference time frame and the class III dealer that I deal with is telling everyone that so as to not get their hopes up on a 6 month turn around time frame.
I will pass this on to the dealer I use just to make sure he knows. I am a 01 FFL holder who thought of upgrading to class III BUT wonder if worth the extra $500 a year just due to teh dang paper work and loopholes/land mines such as you posted.
Again thanks for the info.0 -
quote:Originally posted by llama
Soo... how is this different from a trust, corporation, etc. ad nauseum purchasing a non-NFA item? Or a Regular Joe buying a non-NFA item?
Or is it dependent on which state, for example here in Fl. during the weekday an answer is really quick... on a weekend with multiple gun shows around, it will take a LONG time to get someone on the phone, and a longer pause while actually looking up the info.
I guess I'm asking, are you PO'd because they slipped in a rule change, or are you PO'd about the actual effect of the rule change?
It's different because they were supposed to get rid of the CLEO requirement, which make no mistake, IS the reason folks started doing so many Trusts/Corps. Most of my customers have CCW permits anyway, so I won't have to do that many NICS, but the fact that they have been jerking us off with the promise "soon" of the elimination of the 18th Century CLEO requirement is what is particularly infuriating.
The fact that they didn't TELL anyone, is just as aggravating. Keep in mind a "pattern of willful violations" is all it takes for some POS Industry Ops Investigator to jerk an FFL, and since the promised "ATF reforms" (one more reason to vote for Romney..ugh) haven't taken place, you can't even go before an independent Judge to plead your case, you have to convince some ATF Ahole that you made mistakes, like a human.
I know what I'd do, remind them every 5 minutes of the blood of the hundreds of Mexicans dripping from their hands and ask how they can sleep at night working for the Poor White Trash of Federal LE, that is ATF.
As far as entities, rather than individuals obtaining firearms here's the direct quote from the rules....
ATFE Form 4473 States in "Instructions to Transferee/Buyer", Number 2.:
"When the buyer of a firearm is a corporation, company, association, partnership or other such business entity, an officer authorized to act on behalf of the business must complete Section A of the form with his or her personal information, sign section A, and attach a written statement, executed under penalties of perjury, stating: (A) the firearm is being acquired for the use of and will be the property of that business entity, and (B) the name and address of that business entity."
MOST FFLs and MOST IOIs for that matter, have never even heard of this requirement...but it's there, and lack of compliance is another reason to revoke an FFL.0 -
One reason and the main reason I did a trust was the fact that IF one of my grown kids wants to use the NFA item they can legally WITHOUT me being present IF they are listed in the trust. Also it is easier to add another one to the trust than go through the whole form 4 and CLEO aspect on each one I buy. 0 -
Whomever told you that is mistaken. The only one on your Trust allowed to possess the NFA item is you...OR your Spouse if it's an "A-B" (joint spousal) Trust.
If you want to do multiple users legally on NFA you need to start an LLC, and make family "Managing Members". Two issues with that. COST, which isn't that bad, and regulations. Many states have yearly "minutes" requirements for a legit LLC. And you want to be a legit LLC.0 -
I don't mean to dredge up a old topic, but I always had a lot of reservations on this buying Class 3 stuff using a family trust or corporation as the purchaser of record. It always seemed to me that this was the route that the mega bucks, tin foil hat folks, tryed to use to acquire all sorts of Class 3 goodies while staying below the radar.
Personally if I have to fill out a 4473 when buying a $300 Ruger .22. I dam sure don't shed a tears, if a guy buying a $30,000 Thompson Submachine Gun has to do the same.0
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