Help ID ball cap double barrel shotgun
Does anyone have any information on this gun? My mother-in-law bought it at an antique store a long time ago.
I set up photos here:
http://s1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/slowgto1/Shotgun/
Thanks Guys.
I set up photos here:
http://s1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/slowgto1/Shotgun/
Thanks Guys.
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Remove and check the underside of the barrels near the breech for proofmarks. If you see crossed halberds (battle axes), it's British. If you see "ELG", it's Belgian. Other proofs may identify the country of origin.
I can't quite tell but it looks like the left lockplate may have the remains of "Warranted", which was pretty standard for commercial locks. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Are there any markings at all on the top of the barrel?
By the poor fit of the locks (notice the shaping on the front of the lock vs the shape of the wood), I suspect those barrels may have originally been flintlock ignition with a "drum-conversion" to percussion and the locks replaced after the conversion. In fact, those locks may have originally been flint as well as it looks like they have holes for a frizzen, frizzen spring and flash pan.
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Looking at the LH side again,(photo above) I think it says "RICHARD"
The poor fit of the wood is because the stock is broken in half right there.
I removed the barrels and went over them with a magnifying glass, but didn't find any markings.
In my fourth photo, there is a small brass plate with three initials. Is this most likely the gun owners initials?
http://s1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/slowgto1/Shotgun/?action=view¤t=DSCN1808-1.jpg0 -
First, I think not a domestic product. Style is all wrong in general.
That said I agree that the locks were once flint. This doesn't exactly mean that the gun was ever flint ignition as locks were often recycled or converted before the were installed.
But... If the gun is not an original flint, then why those hammers? They're crude and ugly. They don't fit that gun.
My guess is that there are (or where) proofs on those tubes at one time. I'd bet better than even money on Belgian origin. British is possible but less likely as I'd expect acorn decorations to appear on the furniture of a gun from that period. If no proofs I'd suspect the tubes were cut back at the breach end at some point in the far past.
From what the photos provide I suspect rather early tubes in a gun of this style. Actually this gun is likely an early example of what was to become the style of modern doubles. Just another guess but I'd wager a weld or sculp running the length of the underside of the tubes. In other words not twisted strips of steel and iron wound around a mandrel and welded in barber pole fashion. These would be similar to musket barrels of the early 1800's or fowler tubes of that same era.
Value seems always to be an unasked question. Being unsigned and in rather poor condition, and by virtue of the fact that it's a muzzle stuffer, the value will be low. Very probably in the area of $250.00 depending on the day and the mood of buyers.0 -
There are two dimples on the bottom of the tubes. Possibly these were markings that rusted? I am not familiar with this type of gun. Here are some more photos with the barrel off.
Thanks for the comments. I know its not valuable, but I'm just curious about it. So feel free to critize alterations, etc.
http://s1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/slowgto1/Shotgun2/0 -
I think I see the remains of the Belgian "ELG" in an oval on the bottom barrel and the triple provisional proofmark on both. 0 -
No question that those are proofs. I concur with Spider on them being most probably Belgian. General style suggests this is correct. I note that one drum has been worked over pretty heavily with a pipe wrench or some such. Ouch!
My opinion remains... An early "modern" double. A bit later than I had thought originally as it displays a patent breach system. The tubes have not been cut.
The locks were once intended for flint ignition. Whether the gun is original flint we'll probably never know. At the time this piece was made I suspect flint ignition was still available. My guess, though, is that the gun has always been a percussion piece. The lack of erosion on the barrels and stock pretty much tells that story. Hammers may be replacements, or they may just be rather crude originals. The intended flint hammers would have been much nicer.
It's very likely that both the locks and tubes were intended for flint ignition, then converted during manufacture as percussion became popular. This is not uncommon either in Europe or with domestic makers.
Wouldn't it be something to know the stories that old girl could tell? Give her a nice coat of good oil and a place of honor to rest. I suspect she's deserving of at least that.0 -
Technically it ain't a cap and ball shotgun. Shotguns are not designed or made to fire solid (ball) ammunition. They are designed and made to fire small pellets (shot). It's a percussion cap fired shotgun. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Ned Fall
Technically it ain't a cap and ball shotgun. Shotguns are not designed or made to fire solid (ball) ammunition. They are designed and made to fire small pellets (shot). It's a percussion cap fired shotgun.
Picky-picky! (Technically speaking, of course!) [;)]0 -
your eyes are better than mine Spidy me lad, but I do concur that the lock was originally flint. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Spider7115
I think I see the remains of the Belgian "ELG" in an oval on the bottom barrel and the triple provisional proofmark on both.
I disagree, and think they are the crossed scepters Birmingham English proofs that are tiny and full of crud.0 -
Either way a European utility grade gun. Style suggests Belgium but Birmingham isn't out of the question. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by nord
Either way a European utility grade gun. Style suggests Belgium but Birmingham isn't out of the question.
Yep, hard to tell for sure by the pic but, either way, no more than a wall hanger.0
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