9X21 Cartridge
I am reading a book written by a Russian soldier about his experience in the Chechnya war. In it he mentions captured pistols he and his fellow soldiers would take for trophies and to carry with them in battle. He says " I myself took a 9X21-caliber 98 Beretta FS from a dead mans body, a beautiful, very handy weapon." Has anybody heard of this cartridge? Is it the same as a 9mm Largo? Just curious. In regards to captured pistols he goes on to say " the most prized of which were the Colt 45 ACPs and their American clones. Having a weapon like that meant a lot; it meant that the person carrying it was a was a cutthroat, and commanded respect from others. I didn't know the 1911 was so highly though of internationally.
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I think the 9x21 being referred to here is the 9mm IMI cartridge, which was specifically designed to work in 9mm platform guns, but not be compatible with "ordinary" 9mm luger, in places where civilian ownership of "military" calibers is prohibited by law. They like this one a lot in Italy, for example.
Edit: Also Mexico, and Latin America
Some IDPA type shooters used to use this, because you could cram a little more powder into it than the "ordinary" 9mm luger to make "major".
The Beretta 98 is basically like the common model 92 (ie M9) but chambered in 9x21.
quote:In regards to captured pistols he goes on to say " the most prized of which were the Colt 45 ACPs and their American clones. Having a weapon like that meant a lot; it meant that the person carrying it was a was a cutthroat, and commanded respect from others. I didn't know the 1911 was so highly though of internationally.
It is respected, but I think the point is different than what you're inferring.
If you're walking around with a captured 1911, then that implies that you've killed someone who was carrying a 1911. Who carries 1911s? Americans and special forces types.
So, yeah, if you've killed someone like that, then people are going to think you're a badass. I think that's what this author is saying.
Edit: responding to some points made below:
By design the only thing necessary to convert a 9x21 IMI gun into a 9mm luger one is to switch the barrel (or vice versa).
The 9x21 guns use the same recoil springs, magazine, and other parts.
Yes, I bet you "could" run 9x19 luger through a 9x21 gun, though I don't think its a good idea to do so, except in a "pinch". This is NOT the same thing as running .38 special in a .357 magnum gun.
My concern is that you'll see some gas leakage around the shorter 9x19 case. In addition to just dirtying the chamber more then you might like to, this could lead to premature throat erosion of the barrel. If the only thing holding the round in place is the extractor, I think it would be subject to premature wear from constantly being banged forward by the firing pin. And there are other potential issues. In fact, there was a whole prior thread on this topic:
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=449640
In terms of prevalence of 9x21 on the battlefield, I'd assume that like many revolutionary forces, the Chechnyan rebels would use whatever weapons they could get their hands on. Diverting civilian-purposed 9x21 guns for military use might be one explanation of how this came to be.0 -
Also known as 9x21 IMI. Designed for places where civilians cannot have military cartridges- used in a few matches. NOT a military issue cartridge for anyone that I know of. Finding ammo in a war zone would be a son of a batchelor. 9mm parabellum will not interchange. 0 -
Fiocchi loaded it a while back, dunno if they still do.
COTW states that they loaded the bullet deeply in the case so the round would function in 9mm luger mags, and with standard 9mm luger breech faces and feed ramps, etc...so making the guns was easier for the manufacturers. (being 2mm longer, it just wouldn't chamber in the shorter 9x19 (luger) chamber.)0 -
I have the cartridge listed on the auction. Ruger made some P-89s for the Italian Goverment in 9X21 and had an overrun that was sent back to this country. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
There is more than one 9x21 cartridge out there.
I think the one being referred to here is the 9mm IMI cartridge, which was specifically designed to work in 9mm platform guns, but not be compatible with "ordinary" 9mm luger, in places where civilian ownership of "military" calibers is prohibited by law. They like this one a lot in Italy, for example.
A number of years ago I had a U.S. made, Springfield Arsenal, 1911 pistol chambered for the 9 X 23 cartridge. I was curious to see if it would work with conventional 9mm Luger ammo. The rim dimensions were the same, only the over all length was different, between the two cartridges.
To make a long story short it worked fine as long as I used a Colt magazine specifically made for the 9mm Luger cartridge, rather then the 9 X 23 magazine that came with the Springfield 9 X 23 pistol.
As the 1911 design is a controlled feed mechanism, the rear face of the extractor is what controls headspace. I believe the Beretta is also a controlled feed pistol and if chambered specifically for 9 X 21 would work with conventional 9 MM Luger ammo, without any problems.
EDIT #1, There is a lot of gas leakage when a shorter cartridge is fired in a longer chamber. In the above example, I cronoed the 9mm Luger fired in the 9 X 23 chamber. It lost approximately 100 fps, as opposed to firing the same cartridge in a standard 9mm length chamber.0 -
Lots of semi-autos are controlled-round feed, and lots will have enough extractor tension to hold a cartridge up against the breechface allowing it to fire...but the .45 ACP in the 1911 and other guns headspaces on the case mouth, as do the other straight-walled rimless cases like 9mm, .380, 40 S&W etc. That's why there are no roll crimps for these rounds, there would be no where to properly headspace.
I've seen where a .45 GAP fired in Glock .45 ACP guns, which apparently had the extractor holding the cartridge in place firmly enough to fire. I have also personally fired a .380 ACP round in a 9mm Para Sig P226. this was unintentionally, it was my error not looking at the loose rounds in the cardboard box I was drawing from. The GAP gun jammed on that shooter, as did my Sig when I fired the .380 round.
Can the 9mm Luger "9x19" (or even the .380 "9x17" or 9mm Ultra "9x18") be fired in a 9x21 chamber? The rounds can fit in the chamber, and if held with enough tension by the extractor to allow a firm enough strike by the firing pin it will fire. (Since the power level is just about identical between the 9x21 and 9x19 it might even function.) will the 9x19 be properly headspaced on the case mouth? No.0 -
As Beantown has stated the only thing to make the difference between a 9x19, and a 9x21 is the barrel, and chamber. Yes, the extractor in a longer chambeed pistol, if it is controlled round feed, can let the firing pin strike the primer hard enough to fire. It is all dependant on how well the extractor is fitted, and how much wear it has. It could be good enough to function 100%, untill it gets worn prematurely. Another instance of this is a 40 S&W fired out of a Glock 20...yes it will go off 100% for a short period.
Also, as Beantown pointed out, the 38 Special, and 357 Magnum, have the exact same headspace, hence they function in the same chamber at 100% reliability, if it is a 357 Magnum chamber.
quote:As the 1911 design is a controlled feed mechanism, the rear face of the extractor is what controls headspace.
That is not correct, sorry. Headspace in itself is based on one dimension between two points...not how well the extractor holds the rim to the bolt/breech face. The rimless handgun rounds, headspace on the dimension from the case mouth, to the face of the case head, which is in very close proximity to the distance of the breech face to the front of the chamber, that the case mouth seats against, when the pistol is in full battery.
Yes, the 1911, is a well respected design of over 100 years. it is universally known, and for good reason.
Best
EDIT 1
Yo need to quit taking plays from someone elses books, before you get addicted to them, like they are.
I q1ualified my statement in the opening context. I am not going to argue with you rufe, as you should know how head space works, and it is not off an extractor...PERIOD.0 -
quote:Originally posted by tsr1965
That is not correct, sorry. Headspace in itself is based on one dimension between two points...not how well the extractor holds the rim to the bolt/breech face. The rimless handgun rounds, headspace on the dimension from the case mouth, to the face of the case head, which is in very close proximity to the distance of the breech face to the front of the chamber, that the case mouth seats against, when the pistol is in full battery.
Yes, the 1911, is a well respected design of over 100 years. it is universally known, and for good reason.
Best
In my personal experience, your above statements aren't valid. Besides shooting 9mm Luger cartridges in a barrel chambered for 9 X 23, as I have previously noted. I have fired hundreds of 40 S & W cartridges in a Glock Model 20 that's chambered for the 10 mm cartridge. Over the many years I have done this, never had so much as a misfire.
Per your above statements nether of these pistols should have functioned. "The rimless handgun rounds, headspace on the dimension from the case mouth, to the face of the case head". Obviously if the above is correct, the firing pin wouldn't be able to ignite the primer.0 -
Many pre-Glock pistols have unrestrained firing pin protrusion.
The late Maj George C Nonte had an article with some really ugly pictures of Astras shot with 9mm P in ahead of the extractor in a 9mm Largo (23mm) chamber.
Good luck buying big and shooting small.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Hawk Carse
Many pre-Glock pistols have unrestrained firing pin protrusion.
The late Maj George C Nonte had an article with some really ugly pictures of Astras shot with 9mm P in ahead of the extractor in a 9mm Largo (23mm) chamber.
Good luck buying big and shooting small.
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Proper headspace, is proper headspace. Anything not within those parameters that is deliberately fired, is likely to clean the oatmeal off the corners of somebody's mouth.
A few years ago, a technical writer for The American Rifleman actually stated that the Astra 400 was designed to function with everything from the 9x23 Largo down to the 9x17. Yeah, right. I doubt if a .380 would move the slide a half-inch, but if it rode in ahead of the extractor, it could empty the magazine contents out of the wrong end of the magazine.0
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