Mystery M1 Carbine Help (Pictures)
A friend of mine bought a gun collection from a lady who's husband had passed away. This rifle was in the collection. There is no maker or serial number stamped on the heel, there is no barrel date on the barrel. I have shown it to several people who all seem to think that it doesn't look like anything has been ground off. It has a flip sight, flat bolt, and no bayonet lug. It has a couple of cartouches on the stock. One is a square that says RIA with letters underneath which I can't make out. The other says W.R.A with G.U.D underneath and some sort of round small one which I can't make out. On the trigger assembly on the inside of the stock on one side is stamped SG. On the other side is a square with the word INLAND. Now before someone panics about the serial number I know rifles and shotguns were not required to have serial numbers until the 1968 Gun Control Act. The bore is spotless so please tell me what you think - a lunch box gun? Someone ground everything off? Were the numbers and maker left off for a reason? Now the big question; What do you think it is worth? It also has a small W stamped by screw on top that hold the action in the stock.
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I believe Inland and Saginaw Gear (SG) were both part of GM, but the GM receivers were marked Inland, and on the rear of the receiver. The stock appears to be Winchester in origin with a Guy H. Drewry (GHD) inspection mark, and an arsenal rework mark. The operating slide and bolt are both M1. It could be a rejected receiver, taken and later assembled with whatever parts were available. Strange gun, to say the least.
I'm open to correction on any of this.0 -
There may be a legal difference between a firearm not having a serial number (pre GCA 68)and a firearm having had a serial number that was subsequently obliterated or obscured. I suppose when it may have been done is important too. If needed to comply with law, maybe there's a process by which a firearm can be "reserialized"?
The receiver does look as though it's been ground and refinished. I would wonder if measurement of the receiver thickness in that area would be useful. If not that then a side by side comparison with another carbine might see a difference.0 -
Looks like the serial number and maker's name have been ground off.
Look at the smoothly rounded contour ahead of the rear sight and the flats and wallows behind it.
While prior to GCA 1968 it would not have been required to have a serial number applied, if it ever had one it is illegal to remove it. The Army and contractors were very good about numbering their products, that was how they got paid.
I think it is a collection of spare parts flying in formation.
Very good spare parts, the "high wood" stock, crossbolt safety, and flip sight are early types seldom seen after the post war upgrades.0 -
I'm going to rule out 'lunchbox special'. Reason..
Those 'specials' would have originated from the
factories that produced [any particular product].
If a firearm has more than one manufacturer represented
(as this one shows evidence thereof), that means it has
gone through the refurbishment process, in this case being
Rock Island.
It had to have had a SerNo at the time of inspection by the
RIA armorers, or the receiver would have been qualified for rejection.
Conclusion: My gut feeling is that it went back to RIA as
a battlefield pickup very early during WWII, and was placed
back in inventory prior to the time when carbines were
upgraded to what appears on later versions.
And, further down the line, (very early on-most likely when carbines were
not yet released to the general public), someone obscured the
SerNo to cover the theft.
SerNo removed because the gun was used in a crime? No. The
entire gun would have been tossed if such were the case.
Joe0 -
It could not be a "lunch box special"; guards at the prime contractors were always careful to inspect lunch boxes more than 24" long.
There's no way to know if it was stolen during or after WW2 as it appears, or if someone switched stocks. The poor condition of the wood, as well as rusting & pitting of the metal, leads me to believe that one of the civilian owners left it outside or in a leaky barn for a few years.
It really doesn't matter whether or not the SN can be restored; possession of any firearm with an altered SN could possibly get you 2 years in federal prison. I'm not saying you won't find someone stupid enough to pay $200 for it, I'm saying it's not worth taking the chance.
Neal0 -
quote:Originally posted by beltfed
Now before someone panics about the serial number I know rifles and shotguns were not required to have serial numbers until the 1968 Gun Control Act.
Too many people misinterpret that law. Although longarms weren't required to be serialized before 1968, many of them were, e.g., Winchesters, Marlins, military arms, etc.
If those serial numbers are intentionally removed or defaced, it is a felony to possess one and the GCA exemption does not apply to those firearms.0 -
REMOVING a serial number- even on pre-1968 guns, is a violation of 18 USC 922 K.
(k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport,
ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm
which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number
removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any
firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial
number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been
shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
I have known of 2 cases where a SN went away thru no fault of the owner- one was wear of a VERY old Marlin, one was a stolen Savage pistol that the thief ground off the SN. In both cases, owner applied to BATFE, and they issued a new serial number to be stamped on the gun.0 -
Lets be positive here, that highwood stock will fetch you $300 or more on the auction side, the other parts another few hundred.
look on the auction side and see if you can locate a barreled receiver and reinstall all the parts, you would have a mixed parts gun with a desirable high stock.
but sorry you'll need to destroy the receiver.
good luck Thor.0 -
"It could not be a "lunch box special"; guards at the prime contractors were always careful to inspect lunch boxes more than 24" long."
I agree that evidence clearly points to it not being a "lunch box special" but I wouldn't say that it "could not be" based solely on the diligence of prime contractor guards.
My dad worked in the ballistics lab at Winchester in New Haven during WW-II. His job, at least in part, and as he told it, was to shoot a gun until something broke. Document how many rounds it took before breakdown, document nature of the failure, etc., replace the offending part and continue firing until the next break down. At some point the process was abandon, and whole rifles and pistols were thrown outside where a large pile accumulated, surrounded by a high barb wire fence. Some of these arms headed for the "pile" went out the front door with the blessing of floor supervisors. Dad had two M-1 carbines he brought home the day his boss said, "I suppose you're one of these guys that just has to have a carbine or two." Granted that may have been the story he told mom, but both carbines obviously found their way past the "guards". No serial numbers on either one; just the "A" stamped on the tang piece of one, and "B" on the other.0
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