.300 WSM revisited.
This is another post from what I've seen in two different places in the country now, and a couple different aspects of shooting.
First, I've seen a lot of hunters selling them off and not really buying them from over the counter box stores. In large part that is due to the economy.
Second, I've seen a lot of target shooters picking them up, as well as the RSAUM, for something bigger than the .30-06 but not so much capacity as the .300 Win Mag. As nononsense noted he is now rotating through three reamers to keep up with the demand on the custom end of this cartridge. To me this is a sign the more dedicated shooter sees a value in the cartridge that the average guy does not. My own opinion on that is that while belted mags can be very accurate, they just don't have the finer nit-pickety accuracy as a case that headspaces off the shoulder. In a fair comparison of that situation though is full length re-sized belted cases that headspace off the belt. Not neck-sized only cases that headspace off the shoulder. In any case, the dedicated shooters are the ones who will take a cartridge to it's most extreme as far as accuracy goes.
As I see it overall, the .300 WSM is also down in sales due in part to the "more knowledgeable" ones who tell you it was nothing more than a gimmick. You can't truly reinvent the wheel, but there are better wheels for given applications in certain situations. This round has some qualities that give it a little bit better barrel life than a .300 Win mag, but still give it comparable velocity to the larger case. It's sometimes a case where shooters go for the largest case they need to attain the velocities they want for a given application. In most cases the .300 Win mag will give you more velocity than the short mag (and same with other full length vs. short mag combo's). But, do you really need that much. Going a little less overbore helps with barrel life. It may mean to a shooter going through an entire season without a barrel change vs. degrading accuracy at the end of a particular match season when he needs it most.
As far as the other short mags go, I'm still seeing the upswing with the 7mm WSM. Many a long range shooter feels that that case with a 180 Berger or the new 180 SMK is pretty much the cats-@$$ as far as long range. The .300 has jumped back into the mix though with the newly selected (older bullet) 220 gr. SMK that tends to go through the transonic range better than some of the higher BC bullets. Other bullets have come on line since then in .30 cal that have those qualities. And the .270 is getting a small surge going now that Matrix is putting out 165 and 190 gr. VLD type bullets for that caliber. Given that it has the highest BC of any natural length ogive, I'm still scratching my head as to why this is so long overdue. But, it's here now and up to the shooters to decide if it's a worthwhile endeavor.
First, I've seen a lot of hunters selling them off and not really buying them from over the counter box stores. In large part that is due to the economy.
Second, I've seen a lot of target shooters picking them up, as well as the RSAUM, for something bigger than the .30-06 but not so much capacity as the .300 Win Mag. As nononsense noted he is now rotating through three reamers to keep up with the demand on the custom end of this cartridge. To me this is a sign the more dedicated shooter sees a value in the cartridge that the average guy does not. My own opinion on that is that while belted mags can be very accurate, they just don't have the finer nit-pickety accuracy as a case that headspaces off the shoulder. In a fair comparison of that situation though is full length re-sized belted cases that headspace off the belt. Not neck-sized only cases that headspace off the shoulder. In any case, the dedicated shooters are the ones who will take a cartridge to it's most extreme as far as accuracy goes.
As I see it overall, the .300 WSM is also down in sales due in part to the "more knowledgeable" ones who tell you it was nothing more than a gimmick. You can't truly reinvent the wheel, but there are better wheels for given applications in certain situations. This round has some qualities that give it a little bit better barrel life than a .300 Win mag, but still give it comparable velocity to the larger case. It's sometimes a case where shooters go for the largest case they need to attain the velocities they want for a given application. In most cases the .300 Win mag will give you more velocity than the short mag (and same with other full length vs. short mag combo's). But, do you really need that much. Going a little less overbore helps with barrel life. It may mean to a shooter going through an entire season without a barrel change vs. degrading accuracy at the end of a particular match season when he needs it most.
As far as the other short mags go, I'm still seeing the upswing with the 7mm WSM. Many a long range shooter feels that that case with a 180 Berger or the new 180 SMK is pretty much the cats-@$$ as far as long range. The .300 has jumped back into the mix though with the newly selected (older bullet) 220 gr. SMK that tends to go through the transonic range better than some of the higher BC bullets. Other bullets have come on line since then in .30 cal that have those qualities. And the .270 is getting a small surge going now that Matrix is putting out 165 and 190 gr. VLD type bullets for that caliber. Given that it has the highest BC of any natural length ogive, I'm still scratching my head as to why this is so long overdue. But, it's here now and up to the shooters to decide if it's a worthwhile endeavor.
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I love hearing about the 300 WSM from people way more knowledgeable than myself! There also used to be a dedicated short mags forum but that died a number of years back. There wasn't a lot of activity and I think some issues with the site sponsor IIRC.
Having no large caliber rifle I picked up a Howa 1500 Stainless. Wouldn't trade it for the world. Fit and feel is perfect, though the plastic stock leaves a lot to be desired. Dead nuts accurate with higher quality factory ammo.0 -
I lean heavily toward the old cartridges; I even have rifles in .25 Remington and .30 Remington. When the short magnums started to appear, I decided that I was going to ignore them. But a set of dies at the local gun shop was cheap and then a new A-bolt Medallion showed up on the auction side for an attractive price so I have a .270 WSM in a Savage 14 and a .325 WSM in the A-bolt; I don't even remember why I bought the Remington Seven in 7 SAUM! If a .300 WSM turns up in my price range, I'll probably have that, too. I wonder if part of the "oh-hum" factor on the short magnums is that they are not as impressive in appearance as the standard length magnums. When you hold both a 7 SAUM and a 7 Rem. Mag. in your hand, the 7 Rem. with its length and belt, looks like the more powerful cartridge. But performance-wise, it is as easy to get magnum velocities from the short cases as the longer ones (and usually with a little less powder). But as sandwarrior indicated, the shorts seem to be dying off. The Remingtons are about gone and I hear nothing anymore of the .300 that Ruger came out with. I guess I'll just stock up on cartridge cases and when I'm gone, whoever is stuck with picking through my stuff will wonder what all those funny-looking short, fat cases are about! 0 -
quote:Originally posted by sandwarrior
As I see it overall, the .300 WSM is also down in sales due in part to the "more knowledgeable" ones who tell you it was nothing more than a gimmick. You can't truly reinvent the wheel, but there are better wheels for given applications in certain situations.
An interesting perspective.
The "more knowledgeable" folks have generally stated the 300 WSM can't do anything the 300 WM can do just as well, so "why bother ..."? I think they are referring to power, the chase for fps.
Perhaps Winchester should consider renaming this cartridge the "300 Creedmoor"?0 -
dfletcher,
What the short magnums do that the original cases don't are three things.
One, the case headspaces off the shoulder not the belt. Which, IMO and a number of other shooters, is a more accurate combination.
Second, this combination allows the shooter (specifically competition guys) to run this through a shorter, stiffer action.
Third, attaining the higher magnum velocities on less powder a) gives off less recoil and b) extends barrel life.
These little facets of what the WSM's can do that the original big cases can't is why the competition world is still ramping up with them. And, as I noted, where it doesn't matter, and the economy, is why people are dropping them and going back to the 'original'.
And NO it would not be a good idea for Winchester {FN} to rename this cartridge to anything else. We've had enough debacles with same cartridges renamed to something else.[}:)][:D]
All,
One other point I did not bring up from my first post, but worth mentioning. All the original WSSM's are now defunct as produced rifles. It's a kind of a shame but I understand the economics of it. One of the biggest lessons we learned is that even "short and fat" cartridges have their physical limits of efficiency. I ended up working with all of them and found in general that the bore to body diameter ratios were simply too wide.
However, When these cases are necked up and the ratios of bore/body are reduced, efficiency picks back up. The 6.5 Heaton (a variation of the 6.5mm WSSM), 7mm/WSSM, .30 WSSM, 8mm WSSM and now the .338 WSSM are making a splash in the competition shooting world. They are by no means huge splashes in the world of shooting but people, with the right bullets are finding success with these.0 -
quote:Originally posted by sandwarrior
dfletcher,
What the short magnums do that the original cases don't are three things.
One, the case headspaces off the shoulder not the belt. Which, IMO and a number of other shooters, is a more accurate combination.
Second, this combination allows the shooter (specifically competition guys) to run this through a shorter, stiffer action.
Third, attaining the higher magnum velocities on less powder a) gives off less recoil and b) extends barrel life.
These little facets of what the WSM's can do that the original big cases can't is why the competition world is still ramping up with them. And, as I noted, where it doesn't matter, and the economy, is why people are dropping them and going back to the 'original'.
And NO it would not be a good idea for Winchester {FN} to rename this cartridge to anything else. We've had enough debacles with same cartridges renamed to something else.[}:)][:D]
I agree, that reflects my own experience with the 300 WSM. A few years back I went looking for a Savage 112 BVSS in 300 WM and it couldn't be found. I ended up with a 12 BVSS in 300 WSM and couldn't be happier.
Though I still like my "renamed" 244 Remington and 7mm Remington Express .... [;)]
Edit: I have a Remington 722 with a 1 in 12" twist - made in 1957 I think. So I tend toward Sierra 70 BTHP MK or Hornady 75 VMAX. I also have a 660 (not sure of year) and VLS with the more modern caliber designation stamped on the side. Why folks like the 243 over the 6 is beyond me, to each his own.0 -
dfletcher,
Off topic but what year and twist is your .244?
Edit:
quote:Originally posted by dfletcher
...
"Why folks like the 243 over the 6 is beyond me, to each his own."
I agree, overall I like the 6mm better. It just boils down to the "can you shoot a deer with it" question and Winchester beat Remington to the punch with a 1-10" twist instead of the 1-12" twist. Thus allowing the heavier longer bullet. An 85 gr. bullet out of the 6mm is superb on deer. It's not the best rifle/cartridge/bullet/combo, it's the best MARKETED rifle/cartridge/bullet/combo that's going to sell and see the others eventually pulled.
One of the ironies of the whole thing was when Remington started twisting it in 1-9" so they could stabilize even longer/heavier bullets all the gunwriters came out and said how stupid it was. So, after a few years of that they went to the 1-10". Now, we'd love to find a 1-9" twist off the shelf 6mm so we wouldn't have to get a custom barrel to stabilize the 105-108 VLD type bullets.0 -
quote:One, the case headspaces off the shoulder not the belt. Which, IMO and a number of other shooters, is a more accurate combination.
That is the way it was designed to work for the 300 Winchester Magnum...to head space off the belt. However, when I size with a neck or bushing die, and stop short of the shoulder to boot, does it not then head space off the shoulder? Also in this case, the distance from the case head to the shoulder is longer than the 300 WSM. In turn, with all things being equal, there should theoretically be less Total Internal Runout. Is this not correct?
Best0 -
quote:Originally posted by tsr1965
quote:One, the case headspaces off the shoulder not the belt. Which, IMO and a number of other shooters, is a more accurate combination.
That is the way it was designed to work for the 300 Winchester Magnum...to head space off the belt. However, when I size with a neck or bushing die, and stop short of the shoulder to boot, does it not then head space off the shoulder? Also in this case, the distance from the case head to the shoulder is longer than the 300 WSM. In turn, with all things being equal, there should theoretically be less Total Internal Runout. Is this not correct?
Best
You're right, that does headspace off the shoulder. Just not the first time.
As far as the internal runout, don't think of it as a proportion. The amount of runout that can affect accuracy barely comes up as a percentage to the volume or height of either case.
Think of it in actual terms of runout and therefore be doing something about elimination of it, i.e. custom cut chamber, custom dies, better reloading techniques. It would be awesome to get edit:.001"> But typically with standard dies one can regularly achieve .006"-.010". Using custom dies and better reloading techniques you can regularly achieve .001"-.003" runout.
As far as runout goes with a belted mag, remember any little offset at the belt/case head will magnify at the top of the chamber. Also, because the belted mags case bodies are supposed to fire slightly loose in the chamber there is also the potential of misalignment during ignition. That won't happen after one firing and subsequent neck sizing of the .300 WM.
Of course, custom dies and chambers are going to help in either the .300 WM or .300 WSM. I had an incredibly accurate .300 Win mag. I, and a few others feel that for attempting to get nit-picky super tight accuracy, the .300 WSM is a better platform.0 -
Sandwarrior, your listed reasons were behind the advent of this cartridge. The shorter, fatter powder column was desired (think PPC or BR on steriods) as well as speed with less powder, and positive headspacing via the shoulder (which a neck sized belted magnum would do also).
The WSM's and RSAUM's have been quite the choice for a few years. One of the PA (NBRSA) guys necked one down to 6.5 and set the world record at 1000yds with it (again 5-6yrs ago or more). He called it the 6.5 boogie slinger, and it was doing some incredible things.0 -
Let's see if I can get this into a somewhat reasonable length...
"Perhaps Winchester should consider renaming this cartridge the "300 Creedmoor"? "
I like 'tongue-n-cheek' responses but I think that Hornady might take umbrage to another company using a name or even part of a name that they have trademarked. [;)]
There will always be shooters who believe that there is only one or maybe two cartridges necessary; the .30-06 or the .270 Win. It's their loss that they miss out on the joys of mastering a new cartridge and the reloading process. There are also those who believe that you shouldn't hunt with a cartridge which can't be purchased in any gas station, hardware store or mom & pop establishment in the smallest of burgs. Oh well!
The WSSMs may be out of production in factory rifles but they are alive and well, doing a spectacular job in custom rifles and custom AR platforms. The major manufacturers were responsible for the failure of the WSSM as they will be eventually for the WSM and any other new but better cartridge simply because they didn't support it correctly in design, manufacturing and marketing. Both Winchester and Remington behaved in an unconscionable manner by releasing these products without fully testing the cartridges and platforms for longer term performance. These cartridges have a far greater potential for use than most folks realize but the hardware and loading needs to catch up with the cartridge.
I am currently fielding:
6.5mm WSSM
6.5mm RSAUM
6.5mm WSM
7MM WSM
7mm-300 WSM
7mm RSAUM
6mm WSSM (a variant of the .243 WSSM)
22-6mm Remington Ackley Improved
There isn't a barrel burner in the bunch and the accuracy is superb out to 1,000 yards given the abilities of the driver...
Best.0
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