Fake Winchester Model 1890 solid frame
https://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?ahid=3397&aid=50694&lid=13085017&rts=/asp/searchadvanced_i.asp#searchid=0&type=lot&search=model%201890&sort=relevance&length=10&start=1&refine=&nc=1334066536891
There is a Proxibid auction for a first model 1890 Winchester that has a deluxe stock with a pistol grip, serial number in the 3,000 range. I immediately thought there was something fishy about this gun. I have determined that it is a fake. Someone took a later model (takedown rifle) and modified it to look like a first model (solid frame). The first models as you know are worth more than later models. This makes me angry as they are selling it as a rare original. It is also obviously restored. And I have also been told that they never made a first model with a pistol grip.
Here are some of the things I have noticed.
Please let me know if I am wrong but:
In this first photo you will see a genuine first model 1890 model stamp:
In this second photo you will see the one up for auction. Notice the differences in font and the dash marks. Also, if you look close at the dash marks you can see that this was engraved not stamped.
In this photo you will see an original 1st model hammer. Notice how it has (2) border lines on the bottom edge of the knurling pattern. Only the first model 1890's has a double bottom border line. A first model hammer is different from a later model. They are not interchangable without modification.
In the photo below of the gun up for auction, The hammer only has a single border line. Meaning it is a modified later model hammer. I also think I see weld lines where the takedown screw slot was covered up.
In the photo below - You can see how tightly a lower tang fits into the receiver on a genuine first model. No gap between the two.
On the gun up for auction in the photo below - There is a distinct edge between the lower tang and the receiver. Which is a characteristic of second and third model 1890s. (You can see this edge in the picture above better)
Nice try guys.
There is a Proxibid auction for a first model 1890 Winchester that has a deluxe stock with a pistol grip, serial number in the 3,000 range. I immediately thought there was something fishy about this gun. I have determined that it is a fake. Someone took a later model (takedown rifle) and modified it to look like a first model (solid frame). The first models as you know are worth more than later models. This makes me angry as they are selling it as a rare original. It is also obviously restored. And I have also been told that they never made a first model with a pistol grip.
Here are some of the things I have noticed.
Please let me know if I am wrong but:
In this first photo you will see a genuine first model 1890 model stamp:
In this second photo you will see the one up for auction. Notice the differences in font and the dash marks. Also, if you look close at the dash marks you can see that this was engraved not stamped.
In this photo you will see an original 1st model hammer. Notice how it has (2) border lines on the bottom edge of the knurling pattern. Only the first model 1890's has a double bottom border line. A first model hammer is different from a later model. They are not interchangable without modification.
In the photo below of the gun up for auction, The hammer only has a single border line. Meaning it is a modified later model hammer. I also think I see weld lines where the takedown screw slot was covered up.
In the photo below - You can see how tightly a lower tang fits into the receiver on a genuine first model. No gap between the two.
On the gun up for auction in the photo below - There is a distinct edge between the lower tang and the receiver. Which is a characteristic of second and third model 1890s. (You can see this edge in the picture above better)
Nice try guys.
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What response did you get from the auction house when you reported this apparent fraud?
I'm sure the auction house will be interested in any possibility that it is a fake. They exist by the quality of their reputation. Most jealously guard against any fakes. [:)]0 -
No response yet. I hope they will have an expert look at it before they sell it as original and have some very unhappy bidders. 0 -
Wow. My 1906 with a Remington 513T bbl must be worth a lot. My dad did have a 1890 22 short that was in mint condition but it was a takedown. 0 -
Did you note the difference on the patent dates? One has a dash, other has a dot. 0 -
Hi, Mr. snap!!
Winchester was noteworthy (notice I didn't say notorious!) for trying their best to deplete parts from their bins to complete a run.
Have we absolutely eliminated the chance that the parts-mix, as depicted in your excellent photo display, could have been a legitimate release from the factory?
True, the parts would have to have been 'hand-fit' to accomodate a later revision [of a particular model]..so that begs the question:
Would Winchester have had their machinists use older parts to complete a run, even if that meant altering a particular part in house?
Reason for asking..these very expert boards right here at Gunbroker have repeatedly touted the 'leftover parts' aspect from New Haven, with profit margin as a strong impetus back in the day.
The plot thickens...Thanks for bringing all this to our attention! Joe0 -
quote:Originally posted by givette
Hi, Mr. snap!!
Winchester was noteworthy (notice I didn't say notorious!) for trying their best to deplete parts from their bins to complete a run.
Have we absolutely eliminated the chance that the parts-mix, as depicted in your excellent photo display, could have been a legitimate release from the factory?
True, the parts would have to have been 'hand-fit' to accomodate a later revision [of a particular model]..so that begs the question:
Would Winchester have had their machinists use older parts to complete a run, even if that meant altering a particular part in house?
Reason for asking..these very expert boards right here at Gunbroker have repeatedly touted the 'leftover parts' aspect from New Haven, with profit margin as a strong impetus back in the day.
The plot thickens...Thanks for bringing all this to our attention! Joe
Being the serial number is 3827, and the first model solid frames were made until serial number 15,500. I don't think it would be parts "cleanup". Even if it was, the receiver would still have the correct model stamp.0 -
This gun is back up for auction again. It sold for $1200 plus BP last time.
https://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?ahid=3397&aid=80089&lid=19910976&title=RARE-WINCHESTER-MODEL-1890-.22-CAL-RIFLE#0 -
pictures are really poor.barrel is wrong also you can see the 22 short on the side should be on the top flat. 0 -
quote:Bidders who bid from off site and are not present at the live auction or preview understand and acknowledge that they may not be able to inspect an item as well as if they examined it in person. It is the Bidders responsibility to determine condition, age, genuineness, value or any other determinative factor. James Peterson Company, LLC shall endeavor to describe in detail each item and any pertinent information about it. James Peterson Company, LLC will not be responsible for any errors or omissions in the description of the merchandise unless it is a material and intentional misrepresentation of the item itself. Bidder agrees that everything is sold as is and that they may not return any item they purchase. 0 -
It's a mutt at best. I have 1st model 1890's in this serial number range; I'll look at the tang stampings.
Case hardening is modern, barrel looks hot blued, checkering absolutely sucks, barrel is off a later rifle, wood fitup is horrendous, hammer slot has enough room to throw a donkey thru it, and the take down pins don't look battered.
What a turd. Lot's of fake rifles out there.0
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