handgun bullet energy
I'm building a dueling tree. I'm using 3/4" steel cut into roughly 6" circles for the targets. I want it to be able to hold up to some big stuff (hence the 3/4" steel) But it got me wondering... The individual targets only weigh about 15-20 lbs. I'm thinking a handgun like a .40 or a .45 should have no trouble swinging these from side to side... Heck, even a 9mm ought to be able to knock around a 20 lb piece of steel..Your thoughts?
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The shaft that the targets rotate about have a camming surface.
The shaft end of the taget has an uphill climb to the middle, then a downhill ride to home.0 -
With jacketed high velocity bullets you have to be careful of bullet splatter and the ruptured jackets coming back. 25 yds. probably would be absolute minimum range. Commercial range I use to shoot at wouldn't permit any steel targets similar to your dueling tree closer then 50 yds. Off hand it was quite a challenge to consistently hit 6" targets at 50 yds, in rapid fire. 0 -
Might want to test bed for ricochet possibilities. B4 production. 0 -
You guys are all missing the question. I want to know if handgun rounds have enough energy to move a 20 lb piece of steel. Everything else has already been taken into account. Again, this was built for larger calibers and I'm curious if handguns would be powerful enough to swing it. I'm talking 9mm, .40, and .45 handguns. I know I can easily just try it and see, but I wanted to ask the experts. Then I'll try it. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by midnightrunpaintballer
You guys are all missing the question. I want to know if handgun rounds have enough energy to move a 20 lb piece of steel. Everything else has already been taken into account. Again, this was built for larger calibers and I'm curious if handguns would be powerful enough to swing it. I'm talking 9mm, .40, and .45 handguns. I know I can easily just try it and see, but I wanted to ask the experts. Then I'll try it.
Take it from me, and I am not missing anything of what you are asking. If you have to ask the question of will it move it, then you have not done all the homework you said you have. The 3/4" is to thick for ANY handgun. You will get bounce backs form 9mm, 40, 380, 45, and anything lesser. Even if it has enough power to move the target, it is moving it so slow and little, that the angle of incident, will put it back in your direction. I use 3/4", and 1 " for big rifles, up to 300 RUM, and 45-70. I have some steel popper's, made for high powered rifles too...they are made out of 1/2" and 5/8".
Now, its your forehead, you decide, if you want to go 3/4" or not.0 -
Ya, that's a lot of weight/friction to swing with the handgun rounds you mention. All the trees I have seen/used for handguns are in the 1/2 to 5/8ths inch range. Remember that it has to be hit and swing clean to the other side to operate, and unless it's swinging on bearings that plate arm will drag on whatever is holding it up lots more than a lighter/thinner plate.
The other thing to consider; is it going to be a semi-permanent mount, or portable? The vertical post and base must be wide and weighted enough to keep it from toppling over when hit with enough oomph to swing the 20 pound plates. (Which in this case sounds like heavy caliber handgun or your rifle rounds.) Lugging a really heavy tree from the garage to the truck to the range and back again gets old really quick if you shoot a lot and it's a portable set up. (If it stays there, no worries!)
Now if it's just for stationary impact targets (ringing the gong, so to speak) the 3/4" plate will be practically indestructable for the handgun calibers you list (properly angled, of course).
(On a side note; I also saw a set up where 8 inch diameter 1" plate was welded to an auto spring, which was then held up by an old driveline and a 3-point base. This was hit with .300 mag class rounds, with some big divots but no penetration. Weighed a ton so it was permanent, plus you'll need LOTS of room for richochets, but it was a neat set up that lasted this guy for ages.)0 -
Mossberg used to and maybe still does provide range equipment.
I've experienced lead bullet rebounds at 50 ft from angled range plates made from submarine steel whatever that is. On examining the plates, one can see see divots formed by years of firing at one spot. A divot changes the angle of incidence of the bullet strike.
Examination of tanks that have seen battle also show some nice divots from small arms fire.
Hot rolled low carbon steel, being softest should divot most readily.
I'd investigate with Mossberg or the NRA for the most suitable steel.
Don't sell this rebound thing short.
In the Army, I caught a carbine jacket rebound which imbedded in my neck.
The core passed through the steel while the jacket rebounded to hit me.
Live fire with tracers vividly point out the paths of bullets that rebound everywhere.0 -
quote:Originally posted by midnightrunpaintballer
You guys are all missing the question. I want to know if handgun rounds have enough energy to move a 20 lb piece of steel. Everything else has already been taken into account. Again, this was built for larger calibers and I'm curious if handguns would be powerful enough to swing it. I'm talking 9mm, .40, and .45 handguns. I know I can easily just try it and see, but I wanted to ask the experts. Then I'll try it.
First of all, its MOMENTUM (not kinetic energy) that is the most relevant factor in one moving body creating movement in one it collides with.
To answer the question, in a truly frictionless environment, you BREATHING on a 50 pound steel plate will cause it to move.
So of course a 230 grain .45 ACP bullet at 800 feet per second "can" swing a 20 lb steel plate.
But that doesn't mean it will swing "much", nor does it make the exercise "safe".
How much your target moves is going to depend on where its hit, with what, its overall geometry, and the friction involved. If you have a low friction setup designed specifically for high movement, it may move a great deal. I don't think that's what you have.
Note that in general its NOT a good idea to shoot at heavy rifle targets with handguns, which I think is what the other posters are trying to suggest to you.
I've seen someone shoot a .45 into a steel target 15 yards away, have the bullet bounce right back, hit them in the face, and open up a nice cut on their chin!
I've actually done some shooting of small heavy (10lb+) rifle type targets with a pistol (at FAR ranges) and even if they don't move a "lot" they'll still move a "little" and you'll get a "ping" to let you know you hit it.0 -
I assume you are making this out of A-36 plate. May I suggest the use of 1/2" T-1 plate. T-1 if fairly easy to come by and it can be welded by a skilled welder (preheat to 700F weld with 8018 or better). A-36 is mild low carbon steel with a yield strength of 35,000 lbs, T-1 on the other hand is 100,000 min yield. We experimented a few years ago with a cannon 3" bore and 4 different types of plate 2" thick. Go with T-1. Good luck 0 -
quote:Originally posted by midnightrunpaintballer
You guys are all missing the question. I want to know if handgun rounds have enough energy to move a 20 lb piece of steel. Everything else has already been taken into account. Again, this was built for larger calibers and I'm curious if handguns would be powerful enough to swing it. I'm talking 9mm, .40, and .45 handguns. I know I can easily just try it and see, but I wanted to ask the experts. Then I'll try it.
I made a dueling tree, it has been shot a lot, me thinks your 3/4 inch plate is going to be too heavy to reliably go from side to side when hit. I used 1/4" T-1 plate and use only lead bullets on it. The cam is the key, I used 1" pipe cut at a 45 degree angle then ground at the tip to allow the plate to cam and swing. 3/4" round stock was used for the pin 3" long, the arm is 3/4 X 3/8" thick bar stock.
The plates are octagonal to save steel, T-1 ain't cheap. I do get weld failures where the plate meets the arm bar but it takes a hell of a pounding for a long time before it breaks. Hard cast gas checked 357 mags will dimple the plate but standard 45 and 357 lead loads at 1,000 FPS don't. The plates will function with mild 38 loads too.
There was a place I think it was Seigleman dueling tree or something like that you might want to look them up for a design idea.0 -
quote:First of all, its MOMENTUM (not kinetic energy) that is the most relevant factor in one moving body creating movement in one it collides with.
Yes. Exactly. Kudos.
quote:To answer the question, in a truly frictionless environment, you BREATHING on a 50 pound steel plate will cause it to move.
Uh...No.
You still need momentum to move that mass...or you need to generate a force of sufficient magnitude to overcome its inertial resistance to acceleration.
Air has mass. When you exhale, you give velocity to that mass. Momentum is a function of Mass X Velocity. If the momentum generated isn't of a sufficient quantity to overcome the inertial resistance imposed by the mass...it won't move, friction or no friction. You may be able to blow hard enough to move a suspended 20-pound plate...a little...but breathin' on it ain't gonna do it.
In the vacuum of outer space, a 30-foot diameter boulder and a baseball weigh exactly the same. Nothing. But, you can easily throw the baseball in outer space. You can't throw the boulder because its mass is too great. Even if you could plant your feet against a solid object and shove with all your might...you couldn't move it to any measurable degree.
To the OP. The answer to your question lies in momentum...not energy.0 -
It's already done. I did this as a project in my welding class. I used the materials I used because they were provided. And it was free. I made the post because I was curious about how much force a typical handgun bullet would translate to a target and trying to guess whether or not it would be enough to swing these. I have no doubt that a shotgun will move it with ease. Ditto for the AR 15's but I'm not sure the .223's won't cause dimples. It will depend on the hardness of the steel. I have no idea what the hardness of the steel is. I used whatever I could find laying around the shop. Did I mention it was free? This will be a semi permanent fixture at my range. It will be staked to the ground. But I made it able to be taken apart in case I ever feel like taking it somewhere else. It will have a slight forward lean when set up to deflect ricochets downward. It will be in a little hollow in a hillside so any ricochets to the sides will also be stopped almost immediately by hitting dirt.
If the plates are too heavy to swing, I will go back to the drawing board on the hinges and make something else work.
If it turns out to be a complete failure, hey, I had fun building it and it can go in the scrap pile at home... lol [img][/img]
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