Bert: More on Winchester Threaded Muzzles
I can appreciate your answer about disagreeing with Schwing, because most people digest the information available to them and form their own opinion like you've done. I do that too. Your disagreement with Schwing seems to be based on simple, good business sense, which makes good sense. However, the slightest inclination that Winchester didn't waver from procedures doesn't sell today, and I don't think it ever will. Schwing did indicate that Winchester did, indeed, perform this type of work in house and through outside contractors as well. It might also make good business sense that Winchester's employees would most likely be involved with typical day to day activities, and that it might be more economical at times to send just the barrel to a local gunsmith, or up the road to the Maxim company to perform the work. I believe the bigger question on this subject is how in the world can one tell factory ordered work of this sort, be it in house or out, in the absence of records, from aftermarket work that a competent smith or silencer company like Maxim produced, other than with an educated guess.
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James,
You seem to have missed part of my reason for disagreeing with Schwing... There are factory records that indicate that a small number of rifles was special ordered and delivered to the warehouse with the provision for a Maxim silencer. There is no evidence in the records to support that any were ever sent outside the factory, altered, and then returned to the factory for delivery.
Additionally (and you may have missed the past discussion on the WACA forum), Winchester had eliminated "outside contractors" shortly after the turn of the century. Maxim silencers made their appearance on the market a good number of years after the turn of the century.
As for verifying factory work, it is quite easy to do if you have the opportunity to examine one in hand. I have had the good fortune to handle three different rifles that were factory threaded for the Maxim silencer (all three lettered as such), and all three were identically fitted with a lug on the end of the barrel, and the end of the lug was milled with interupted threads to allow for 1/4 turn installation of the silencer. When the silencer was not installed, a knurled threaded cap was installed. The lug and the interupted threads were blued. On the dozens of non-factory threaded muzzles I have looked at, the work is clearly aftermarket because the threads are not interupted, and the threads on the end of the muzzle are in the white. There are usually other evident clues when carefully examined.
Finally, while Ned Schwing is to be highly commended for his invaluable research and reference books, he too has a few errors & mistakes in his books.0 -
I picked up on all the parts of your post, and complimented you on it making good sense. However, I'd not discount Schwing's statement on what you have mentioned though.
I do not recall the post regarding outside contractors, but I'll try to find it - thanks for the tip.
I was thinking that the Maxim silencers were the first to hit the market, and I can't say that I am aware of any other company that made them way back then. Of course, if I were to view a threaded muzzle that was in the white, I'd not consider it to be factory ordered either, or even done by a company like Maxim. I am somewhat familiar with the type threading and protective cap that you mention as well, although I have not personally handled any, I have seen a lot of them over the years on the net.
In the mid-1920s, as you would know, Maxim sold at least two different types of couplings for the octagon or round barrel .22's that were made to be driven onto the end of the barrel and shimmed. What I'd like to know is when they adopted this policy, since according to this ad, .22 barrels were not threaded by their company at that time. The following is a picture of one type of Maxim coupling used during this period, shown with it's thimble (protective cap) covering the interrupted threads:
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kimi,thats just the way my 1890 made around 1912 looks with the silencer adapter on it. eastbank. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by eastbank
kimi,thats just the way my 1890 made around 1912 looks with the silencer adapter on it. eastbank.
This one is a Maxim coupling, eastbank, which means it is driven onto the barrel and shimmed if necessary, thereby negating any threading of the barrel itself. This rifle has another factory feature on it which leads me to believe that the coupling might have been fitted by Winchester too.
Bert has already mentioned that the Maxim silencers were listed as a special order option in Winchester's catalogs, and it would appear to me that such an item so listed would most likely have been factory fitted due to the wide publicity that local shops could give to such items, which would simplify one stop shopping, so to speak. One of my uncles owned a small community store back in Texas in the 1940s, 50s, and 60s, and he carried only Winchester rifles, where he placed special orders for his customers too.0 -
James,
The picture you posted shows the identical style lug on the end of the barrel that is on the three rifles that I have seen that lettered.
The fact that just a very tiny percentage of Winchester rifles were equipped with the provision for a silencer does make it difficult to fully research the topic.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
James,
The picture you posted shows the identical style lug on the end of the barrel that is on the three rifles that I have seen that lettered.
The fact that just a very tiny percentage of Winchester rifles were equipped with the provision for a silencer does make it difficult to fully research the topic.
A big thank you, Bert! That makes my day!0
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