Does 100 Year Old Gun Steel Go Bad?
My gunsmith's metallurgical engineer says Steel does Not go bad simply from age alone. The steel is stable. But....... what about hidden inclusions that are unseen? Could that be a stress point if present in the steel? Steel was not as pure and not as well refined then as compared to now. Please.... All of this assuming a Mint Original Firearm shooting the correct ammo, Let's stay on topic, this is about the STEEL!
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Your gunsmith is correct. Hidden inclusions do not change either, unless they are exposed to oxygen (which means that they are not totally hidden). Within your specified age (100-years), the steel making process was very well refined and the steel very consistently pure. The fact of the matterl, is that the steel making process was all but perfected by the late 1870s (nearly 140-years ago). I do not hesitate for even a milisecond to shoot my 1880s and 1890s vintage Winchesters with the appropriate ammo. 0 -
It all depends on the orgin of the steel...third world country, you get third world steel, so to speak. There are countrys today, that still cannot make steel as well as others could back 100 years ago.
In todays world, there are so many more high strength, low alloy steels, just by altering the carbon matrix. But back to the metalurgical engineer...he is definately right on track... The guns steel does not change, unless it is completely oxidized from the outside in, or it is re-smelted, and something added to the mix.
Best0 -
Your gunsmith has a metallurgical engineer? He must really be expensive.
I think steel is relatively stable. The iron in steel can always combine with oxygen when exposed to air to form ferric oxide, which is why we oil our guns after handling/use. Most inclusions are hidden, which is why some of us pay good money for name brand barrels, rather than save a little buying Chicom no-name junk. Any problem with the way steel was made will always be there, both new & after a number of years.
If your real question is, "Is an old gun safe to use with the original type of ammo?", I think the best answer is, "It depends."
Neal0 -
I am a mechanical engineer, who is often taken to task about shooting my Damascus guns they are nitro proofed and would agree with the depends answer 100%
Larry0 -
I'm in the North/South skirmish association. Despite the dire warnings in the rest of the shooting community, I'd say at least half the members shoot original guns. Including smoothbores going back to the early 1800s. I have not seen or heard of even ONE blow up, and the group has been going for 50 plus years now.
Point being: condition is everything, but age alone doesn't weaken a gun.0 -
Cockerill, Krupp, and Bessemer had steel making down to a pretty fine art 100 yrs ago. This was not a backyard industry. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by CJS10
My gunsmith's metallurgical engineer says Steel does Not go bad simply from age alone. The steel is stable. . . .
But, what about the repetitive stress loading and unloading each time a firearm is fired? Doesn't that change the structure of the steel, eventually causing fractures and failures? I have had more than one hammer and/or spring fracture, and this cannot be simply from the age of the steel.
I know this thread is about steel, but why are airplanes retired at relatively young ages? Isn't it because of the stress loading and unloading each time the fuselage is pressurized and de-pressurized?
Ray0 -
quote:Originally posted by Cheechako
quote:Originally posted by CJS10
My gunsmith's metallurgical engineer says Steel does Not go bad simply from age alone. The steel is stable. . . .
But, what about the repetitive stress loading and unloading each time a firearm is fired? Doesn't that change the structure of the steel, eventually causing fractures and failures? I have had more than one hammer and/or spring fracture, and this cannot be simply from the age of the steel.
I know this thread is about steel, but why are airplanes retired at relatively young ages? Isn't it because of the stress loading and unloading each time the fuselage is pressurized and de-pressurized?
Ray
No...it doesnt change the structure of the steel, but it brings out the weaknesses that are already there.
Best0 -
quote:Originally posted by Cheechako
But, what about the repetitive stress loading and unloading each time a firearm is fired? Doesn't that change the structure of the steel, eventually causing fractures and failures? I have had more than one hammer and/or spring fracture, and this cannot be simply from the age of the steel.
I know this thread is about steel, but why are airplanes retired at relatively young ages? Isn't it because of the stress loading and unloading each time the fuselage is pressurized and de-pressurized?
Ray
Steel is one of the few materials that will not fatigue as long as the loading cycles do not exceed a certain percentage of maximum strength. In other words, you can bend it, and as long as you don't pass a certain point, it will flex back to normal shape and not suffer any damage. And, you can keep doing that forever. That is why the crankshaft in your auto engine can endure multiple millions of load cycles without breaking.
Airplanes are made from aluminum. Aluminum will begin to fatigue with the first load cycle, no matter how lightly it is loaded. After so many load cycles, it will break.
I don't know for sure, but I would bet that guns are designed so that the barrel never sees a load cycle that would put it at risk.
Springs are frequently used in the range that would cause fatigue. Many semi-auto pistols have recommended change intervals for springs that are fairly low.0 -
A number of years ago, I had a talk with the Armorer/Conservator of the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City.
He agreed with a theory I had about iron and steel.
Iron and steel that is left alone and not subjected to the stresses of regular use will tend to get brittle with time. A good example of this would be two identical 100 year old cold chisels made by the same manufacturer from the same batch of steel. One is the one you have in the bottom of your tool box that has had regular use. The other was found in an antique store and is in almost mint condition.
If you were to use these chisels, you could pound on the chisel from your tool box all day long and it would cut as well as it always has. But, with the minty chisel from the antique store-there would be a good chance that it will shatter from a hard hit with a hammer.
Likewise with black powder firearms. If you have an old Colt revolver that lived through the Civil War, was kept in good condition, and was used priodically ever since. it could be loaded with a full charge of powder today and it would function as well as it always had,
But, lets say that you had another Colt of the same model and same year of manufacture; only, this one was a presentation piece that either had never been fired or had been fired only once or twice early in its life. It would be unwise to fire this gun with a full load because there would be a good chance that you could blow out a cylinder.
The molecules in iron and steel that has been subjected to the stresses and strains of regular use tend to be aligned in a hodge podge fashion. This molecular alignment is what gives these metals its strength. The molecules of iron and steel that has lain idle for long periods of time and has not been subjected to the stresses and strains of regular use have their molecules aligned in straight lines. This makes such metals much more brittle than those whose molecules are in a random pattern.0 -
quote:Originally posted by steg
A number of years ago, I had a talk with the Armorer/Conservator of the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City.
He agreed with a theory I had about iron and steel.
Iron and steel that is left alone and not subjected to the stresses of regular use will tend to get brittle with time. A good example of this would be two identical 100 year old cold chisels made by the same manufacturer from the same batch of steel. One is the one you have in the bottom of your tool box that has had regular use. The other was found in an antique store and is in almost mint condition.
If you were to use these chisels, you could pound on the chisel from your tool box all day long and it would cut as well as it always has. But, with the minty chisel from the antique store-there would be a good chance that it will shatter from a hard hit with a hammer.
Likewise with black powder firearms. If you have an old Colt revolver that lived through the Civil War, was kept in good condition, and was used priodically ever since. it could be loaded with a full charge of powder today and it would function as well as it always had,
But, lets say that you had another Colt of the same model and same year of manufacture; only, this one was a presentation piece that either had never been fired or had been fired only once or twice early in its life. It would be unwise to fire this gun with a full load because there would be a good chance that you could blow out a cylinder.
The molecules in iron and steel that has been subjected to the stresses and strains of regular use tend to be aligned in a hodge podge fashion. This molecular alignment is what gives these metals its strength. The molecules of iron and steel that has lain idle for long periods of time and has not been subjected to the stresses and strains of regular use have their molecules aligned in straight lines. This makes such metals much more brittle than those whose molecules are in a random pattern.
Steg,
There is no scientific basis for your "theory". Modern steel does not change any of its moleculor properties just by sitting idle for 100-years. Next time, try talking with to a real engineer versus a museum curator.0
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