Antique Firearm Definition
There appears to be some confusion in a previous post on the definition of antique firearm and whether or not a firearm using fixed ammunition that is currently manufactured can be classed an an antique firearm. The fact is that it depends on which law you look at and the type of firearm.
The National Firearms Act (NFA) (Title 26, USC, Chapter 53), which is part of the Internal Revenue Code, regulates machine guns, destructive devices, and certain other firearms.
A firearm regulated under the NFA cannot use fixed ammunition currently manufactured in the United States or that is readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
The Gun Control Act (GCA) is part of Title 18, USC, Chapter 44. While there is a fixed cartridge limitation in the antique firearms definition, it only applies to replicas of antique firearms. There is no fixed cartridge restriction on firearms manufactured in or before 1898, unless they are regulated under the NFA. These are a very small percentage of the total firearms in circulation.
The NFA and the GCA are codified in two different codes based on two different acts of Congress passed 34 years apart.
The applicable sections of both laws are quoted below.
The National Firearms Act
quote:Title 26, USC, Section 5845(g):
(g) Antique firearm
The term "antique firearm" means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
The Gun Control Act
quote:Title 18, USC, Section 921(a)(16)
(16) The term "antique firearm" means-
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica-
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.
The National Firearms Act (NFA) (Title 26, USC, Chapter 53), which is part of the Internal Revenue Code, regulates machine guns, destructive devices, and certain other firearms.
A firearm regulated under the NFA cannot use fixed ammunition currently manufactured in the United States or that is readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
The Gun Control Act (GCA) is part of Title 18, USC, Chapter 44. While there is a fixed cartridge limitation in the antique firearms definition, it only applies to replicas of antique firearms. There is no fixed cartridge restriction on firearms manufactured in or before 1898, unless they are regulated under the NFA. These are a very small percentage of the total firearms in circulation.
The NFA and the GCA are codified in two different codes based on two different acts of Congress passed 34 years apart.
The applicable sections of both laws are quoted below.
The National Firearms Act
quote:Title 26, USC, Section 5845(g):
(g) Antique firearm
The term "antique firearm" means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
The Gun Control Act
quote:Title 18, USC, Section 921(a)(16)
(16) The term "antique firearm" means-
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica-
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.
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As I explained in the other thread, there is NO confusion. The law in the 1968 Act has NO substantial differences with the 1934 Act. The changes in the sentences is not any difference; they say the SAME thing.
Why do you suggest "replicas" are not included under NFA law when it is right there in front of you:
The term "antique firearm" means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898)...
ATF describing characteristics relating to NFA law: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/importation-verification/firearms-verification-nfa-antique-firearm.html
ATF describing characteristics relating to defining an antique firearm under 18 U.S.C., ? 921(A)(16) : http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/importation-verification/firearms-verification-gca-antique-firearm.html0 -
In a nutshell, that is saying, that anyfirearm that does not take a cartridge of conventional rimfire, or centerfire(pin fire could lead to a discussion), is not controlled by any of the GCA, or NFA regulations. It also states that ANY firearm manufactured before 1899, unless it is NFA classified(read as machinegun, or possibly gattling gun), also does not constitute a firearm, and is not regulated by the GCA's, but possibly could be regulated by the NFA regulations.
Best
EDIT 1
quote:If you are correct, GunBroker is facilitating a lot of illegal sales of Trapdoor Springfield rifles chambered in
GunBroker is facilitating nothing illegal. The legality end is totally up to, and relies on the seller and buyer...PERIOD.
The BATFE accepts "before 1899", as the cutoff date, as the line in the sand of antique, and cares nothing of cartridge availability, in modern form.
Untill you get your bearings straight, you might want to refrain from putting incorrect information on the board.
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quote:Originally posted by competentone
As I explained in the other thread, there is NO confusion. The law in the 1968 Act has NO substantial differences with the 1934 Act. The changes in the sentences is not any difference; they say the SAME thing.
Why do you suggest "replicas" are not included under NFA law when it is right there in front of you:
The term "antique firearm" means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898)...
ATF describing characteristics relating to NFA law: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/importation-verification/firearms-verification-nfa-antique-firearm.html
ATF describing characteristics relating to defining an antique firearm under 18 U.S.C., ? 921(A)(16) : http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/importation-verification/firearms-verification-gca-antique-firearm.html
Now you're making things up. Replicas are not mentioned in the NFA, only in the GCA.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. If you are correct, GunBroker is facilitating a lot of illegal sales of Trapdoor Springfield rifles chambered in .45/70 Government which is a currently manufactured fixed cartridge. There are a lot listed as antiques requiring no FFL involvement in the sale. I'll also admit to participation in such a sale.0 -
quote:Originally posted by EOD Guy
quote:Originally posted by competentone
As I explained in the other thread, there is NO confusion. The law in the 1968 Act has NO substantial differences with the 1934 Act. The changes in the sentences is not any difference; they say the SAME thing.
Why do you suggest "replicas" are not included under NFA law when it is right there in front of you:
The term "antique firearm" means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898)...
ATF describing characteristics relating to NFA law: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/importation-verification/firearms-verification-nfa-antique-firearm.html
ATF describing characteristics relating to defining an antique firearm under 18 U.S.C., ? 921(A)(16) : http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/importation-verification/firearms-verification-gca-antique-firearm.html
Now you're making things up. Replicas are not mentioned in the NFA, only in the GCA.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. If you are correct, GunBroker is facilitating a lot of illegal sales of Trapdoor Springfield rifles chambered in .45/70 Government which is a currently manufactured fixed cartridge. There are a lot listed as antiques requiring no FFL involvement in the sale. I'll also admit to participation in such a sale.
Darn, you caught me making this stuff up. I guess I better admit too that I hacked the government's web site and changed the definition -- to include the language "or replica thereof" in the National Firearms Act -- here (page 7 in the PDF):
http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-appendix-a.pdf0 -
quote:Originally posted by tsr1965
In a nutshell, that is saying, that anyfirearm that does not take a cartridge of conventional rimfire, or centerfire(pin fire could lead to a discussion), is not controlled by any of the GCA, or NFA regulations. It also states that ANY firearm manufactured before 1899, unless it is NFA classified(read as machinegun, or possibly gattling gun), also does not constitute a firearm, and is not regulated by the GCA's, but possibly could be regulated by the NFA regulations.
Well stated. I don't know why "EOD Guy" is trying to confuse this issue. It is quite clear.0 -
All you guys are doing, is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
You are doing a disservice to folks who live in States like California, New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts etc. That have very restrictive gun laws. Who are not knowledgeable regarding older firearms, or modern made replicas. That will readily function with modern made ammo. Telling these folks about firearms made prior to 1899, being antiques exempt from the law. Likely will cause them serious problems.
Instead of splitting hairs between the 1934 and 1968 laws. You should emphasize in certain States and Cities. These federal laws are superseded by local guns laws. That will get you thrown in jail, if they so much catch you with a original 125 year old SAA.0 -
quote:Originally posted by EOD Guy
quote:Originally posted by competentone
As I explained in the other thread, there is NO confusion. The law in the 1968 Act has NO substantial differences with the 1934 Act. The changes in the sentences is not any difference; they say the SAME thing.
Why do you suggest "replicas" are not included under NFA law when it is right there in front of you:
The term "antique firearm" means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898)...
ATF describing characteristics relating to NFA law: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/importation-verification/firearms-verification-nfa-antique-firearm.html
ATF describing characteristics relating to defining an antique firearm under 18 U.S.C., ? 921(A)(16) : http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/importation-verification/firearms-verification-gca-antique-firearm.html
Now you're making things up. Replicas are not mentioned in the NFA, only in the GCA.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. If you are correct, GunBroker is facilitating a lot of illegal sales of Trapdoor Springfield rifles chambered in .45/70 Government which is a currently manufactured fixed cartridge. There are a lot listed as antiques requiring no FFL involvement in the sale. I'll also admit to participation in such a sale.
Can you please tell me where .45-70 blackpowder ammo is readily available in the normal channels of commercial trade?0 -
quote:Originally posted by JohnStimson
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/559254/goex-black-dawge-black-powder-ammunition-45-70-government-405-grain-lead-flat-nose-box-of-20
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=158179&CAT=3824
Status: Discontinued
Besides, "normal channels of commercial trade" would mean nearly every gun or sporting goods store would commonly stock it, not just a specialty store.0 -
competentone,
First, I want to apologize for saying you were making things up.
It's my fault the posts continued as long as they did and it is obvious that I was not making myself clear, skimmed over the definition, and was arguing the wrong point.
You are correct that replicas are included in the NFA definition. However, none of the firearms, including the replicas, can use currently available fixed cartridges to be classed as antiques. That's why the Colt-Browning M1895 machine gun is still fully regulated under the NFA, even if manufactured prior to 1899.
The Gun Control Act treats replicas differently. Replicas cannot use currently available fixed ammunition, while firearms manufactured before 1899 can still be classed as antiques even if they use currently available fixed ammunition. My example of the Trapdoor Springfield comes to mind. The .45/70 Government cartridge is currently available and BATF doesn't care if the cartridge is loaded with smokeless or black powder. That's why all of the replicas of trapdoor or sharps rifles and carbines are regulated under the GCA, while original ones are not.
I hope to make better arguments next time. This was not one of my better threads.0 -
quote:Originally posted by EOD Guy
You are correct that replicas are included in the NFA definition. However, none of the firearms, including the replicas, can use currently available fixed cartridges to be classed as antiques. That's why the Colt-Browning M1895 machine gun is still fully regulated under the NFA, even if manufactured prior to 1899.
I'll try to get this in before the lock.
The reason why a machine gun manufactured prior to 1899 is regulated under NFA law is NOT because it uses "currently available fixed cartridges." It's regulated as an NFA item because it fits the definition of a machine gun.
The "antique" status, doesn't override the "machine gun" status and "exempt" it from regulation.0 -
I admire the way that this was able to be discussed without name calling and insults. This is what sets ATE apart from General Discussion and can serve as an example to a few who visit our forum and feel that civility is not needed. 0 -
I second what Mark stated, and also very much appreciate the demeanor and mature discussion![^] 0
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