Hornady's Critical Defense & Zombie Max The Same?
I've been looking for Hornady 45 ACP Critical Defense ammo for my concealed carry pistol and cannot find it anywhere. I've been to 3 local guns shows and plenty of stores in the last month and everyone has Critical Defense in 9MM and 40 S&W, but not 45 ACP. On the other hand, almost every vendor has Hornady's Zombie Max ammo in 45 ACP. The Critical Defense and Zombie Max rounds appear similar, but one has hollow points filled with red material and the other has a green fill. Is this the same ammo when it comes to bullet performance with simply a different marketing name? I think this whole zombie thing is a little juvenile, but if the ammo and bullets perform the same, I'll stop looking for Critical Defense rounds and go with the Zombie Max.
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I would say yes, just like the .224 50 grain Zombie Max is nothing but a Vmax. 0 -
Here's some Critical Defense...
http://www.GunBroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=3606797780 -
You could ask them?
They had an announcement a while back that lots of stuff was temporary suspended in order to help catch up production.
http://www.hornady.com/contact_us0 -
quote:Originally posted by Fairlane66
I've been looking for Hornady 45 ACP Critical Defense ammo for my concealed carry pistol and cannot find it anywhere. I've been to 3 local guns shows and plenty of stores in the last month and everyone has Critical Defense in 9MM and 40 S&W, but not 45 ACP. On the other hand, almost every vendor has Hornady's Zombie Max ammo in 45 ACP. The Critical Defense and Zombie Max rounds appear similar, but one has hollow points filled with red material and the other has a green fill. Is this the same ammo when it comes to bullet performance with simply a different marketing name? I think this whole zombie thing is a little juvenile, but if the ammo and bullets perform the same, I'll stop looking for Critical Defense rounds and go with the Zombie Max.
Actually, the "Zombie Max" is a specialty round, designed for optimal disruption of undead zombie tissue, and Hornady explicity advises against every shooting ANYTHING BUT a zombie with this ammunition:
quote:But please note, Hornady Zombie Max ammunition is not a toy. It is intended only to be used on zombies, also known as the living dead, undead, etc. No human being, plant, animal, vegetable or mineral should ever be shot with Zombie Max ammunition.
Again, we repeat, Zombie Max ammunition is for use on zombies only - that's not a nickname, phrase or cute way of referring to anybody, place or thing. When we say zombies, we mean zombies.
So there you have it.
Oh, and one other thing. . .
The "Zombie Max" has green ballistic tips, plain brass cases, and zombie themed packaging
The "Critical Defense" has red ballistics tips, nickel plated brass cases, and more conventional packaging.
So there are cosmetic differences. Ballistic differences? Nope.0 -
Seems to me Hornady has gotten themselves into a potential legal pickle with this Zombie ammo. As all sane people know, there are no Zombies, so to produce ammunition packaged in Hollywood-crazy boxes that can only be used on something that doesn't exist is a marketing nightmare. Seems to me you can use this stuff to shoot Zombies or paper, but nothing else. So, first off, you have knuckleheads buying this stuff simply because it looks cool and, second, there's really no market for it, i.e. no Zombies. Now, in reality, if this stuff is designed to rip up Zombies, it stands to reason it would serve as a solid self-defense round. However, since Hornady already set themselves on the crazy Zombie path, I'm sure their lawyers told them to put out the official warning that's mentioned above, i.e. don't shoot anything with this ammo but Zombies. This is nuts! Legitimate gun owners have been trained never to treat guns as toys, yet Hornady has marketed toy-like ammo, just to take advantage of America's nut-job Zombie fascination.
So, here's a dilemma. The NRA expert that taught my concealed carry class warned us never to use anything but factory ammo that was marketed for self-defense purposes. In fact, he and his team swore by Hornady Critical Defense ammo. He warned us that slip-and-fall lawyers would shred us if we shot another person in self-defense using handloads or other oddball ammo. So, here we have Hornady, one of America's premier ammo manufactures, specifically telling customers this particular ammo is only to be used on Zombies. In fact, they specifically warn against shooting humans with this ammo. Therefore, would using this ammo agaist another human in self-defense be setting one up for legal prosecution?
This is nuts, folks. Am I off base here or is this all just a tempest in a teapot?0 -
quote:Originally posted by Fairlane66
Seems to me Hornady has gotten themselves into a potential legal pickle with this Zombie ammo. As all sane people know, there are no Zombies, so to produce ammunition packaged in Hollywood-crazy boxes that can only be used on something that doesn't exist is a marketing nightmare.
I disagree.
You're talking about this, and Hornady is getting free publicity. That sounds like a marketing plus to me.
Since in reality probably 99.999%+ of "Zombie Max" ammo will never be fired at anything more dangerous than pieces of paper or soda cans, I don't really think this is as big of a problem as you're suggesting.
quote:He warned us that slip-and-fall lawyers would shred us if we shot another person in self-defense using handloads or other oddball ammo.
So goes the conventional wisdom in self-defense circles.
That advice heard, I have yet to hear of any case in the real world where a prosecutor actually has tried to make an issue of something like this, let alone successfully. COULD it happen? Yes. DOES it happen? Not often. . .that's for sure.
These sorts of self-defense cases generally come down to external circumstances (ie was the shooter legitimately afraid for their life and acting in self defense), not minutiae about caliber or ammo choices.
But if you're really worried about this, go spend your money on something else. Or better yet, train and practice with all the "zombie" ammo you like, but actually LOAD your carry guns with only the Critical Defense ammo. You may have to pay extra for it, but you can probably find ONE box of this on the auction site, if you have to.
quote:Seems to me you can use this stuff to shoot Zombies or paper, but nothing else. So, first off, you have knuckleheads buying this stuff simply because it looks cool and, second, there's really no market for it, i.e. no Zombies.
If there is no market for it, then why are you talking about it? You may think this marketing ploy is stupid (and if you do, I don't disagree) and reflects poorly on the company/gun owners (again, don't disagree), but the ammo *IS* moving off the shelves.
Warning on the box or no, you can still shoot whatever you like with this ammo. Like with any other ammo, its still up to you to decide what to shoot and when.
quote: This is nuts! Legitimate gun owners have been trained never to treat guns as toys, yet Hornady has marketed toy-like ammo, just to take advantage of America's nut-job Zombie fascination.
So if this bothers you so much, don't buy it.
quote: Therefore, would using this ammo agaist another human in self-defense be setting one up for legal prosecution?
See my response to this question in your other thread on this topic.
Edit:
quote:Originally posted by EhlerDave
But what should I use if I do find a zombie?
Trying to answer this question as seriously as it deserves, "real world" Haitian zombies are just ordinary people who are either mentally ill or drugged (or both).
They're typically peaceful and rather pathetic, and even if you were in Haiti, you probably wouldn't ever need to actually shoot one. Assuming you encountered one (which itself would be pretty unlikely), your best bet would be to report him/her to the local health authorities. In the even less likely scenario where one actually attacked you, you'd want to use the same "personal defense" type ammo you'd use on any other human attacker.
If you're referring to mythical violent supernatural Hollywood movie-type zombies, in the even more unlikely event that one attacked you, you'd want to use whatever ammo you had available. Assuming its the type of zombie that requires a CNS hit to disable, beating one with with any conventional handgun is going to be tough regardless of ammo type. A shotgun or rifle would be preferable. Since there is a performance limit to ANY handgun in any given caliber, and since your anti-Zombie ammo probably also has to do double-duty to protect against conventional human attack too, again, I'd just load with the best "personal defense" ammo available.
Not incidentally, personally, I've seen a number of gunshot wounds from the inside, and I'm of the belief that in the real world, ammo brand/type matters a lot less than most people imagine.
Yes, for any given caliber some ammo will be a little better and some a little worse, but all of them will effectively launch similar weight projectiles of the same diameter at similar velocities. Once you've moved up to a legitimate "service" type centerfire handgun caliber of 9mm luger power or above, and are using an appropriate "defense" load, 90% of the actual efficacy is going to relate to where the bullet hits, and subjective factors related to the individual who has been hit, not to specific differences in bullet construction between different manufacturers. In terms of actual performance difference, I think choice of caliber is more important than choice of ammo within a given caliber.
In short, a good hit with cheap low velocity 9mm ball ammo is going to outperform a poorer hit with premium nickle-cased super-duper hollowpoint expanding eagle-claw shock ammo in the same caliber. Further, any decent .40SW round is probably going to outperform EVERY 9mm round, though the improvement in performance probably won't be all that much, and there are other factors that come into play too (ie cost and availability of ammo, recoil, capacity, etc).0 -
But what should I use if I do find a zombie? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Fairlane66
Seems to me Hornady has gotten themselves into a potential legal pickle with this Zombie ammo. As all sane people know, there are no Zombies, so to produce ammunition packaged in Hollywood-crazy boxes that can only be used on something that doesn't exist is a marketing nightmare. Seems to me you can use this stuff to shoot Zombies or paper, but nothing else. So, first off, you have knuckleheads buying this stuff simply because it looks cool and, second, there's really no market for it, i.e. no Zombies. Now, in reality, if this stuff is designed to rip up Zombies, it stands to reason it would serve as a solid self-defense round. However, since Hornady already set themselves on the crazy Zombie path, I'm sure their lawyers told them to put out the official warning that's mentioned above, i.e. don't shoot anything with this ammo but Zombies. This is nuts! Legitimate gun owners have been trained never to treat guns as toys, yet Hornady has marketed toy-like ammo, just to take advantage of America's nut-job Zombie fascination.
So, here's a dilemma. The NRA expert that taught my concealed carry class warned us never to use anything but factory ammo that was marketed for self-defense purposes. In fact, he and his team swore by Hornady Critical Defense ammo. He warned us that slip-and-fall lawyers would shred us if we shot another person in self-defense using handloads or other oddball ammo. So, here we have Hornady, one of America's premier ammo manufactures, specifically telling customers this particular ammo is only to be used on Zombies. In fact, they specifically warn against shooting humans with this ammo. Therefore, would using this ammo agaist another human in self-defense be setting one up for legal prosecution?
This is nuts, folks. Am I off base here or is this all just a tempest in a teapot?
Unless the "NRA expert" is a lawyer and practices in the area of law dealing with shootings involving civil litigation I would suggest that he is just being very conservative in his view of the law. Practically speaking, in litigation relating to shootings, the type of ammunition is not usually an issue. Many factors come into consideration in such cases and the decider of the facts, whether a judge or jury, would look at the issue of justification more than anything else. Most triers of fact would find that any lawyer nick picking on the issue of what label was on the box of bullets would more than likely find against them, but that is not to say there are some idiots on juries who might find the argument compelling.
Needless to say, I would not really worry about the issue and I leave you with a link to a photo of two lawyers in a recent story for your edification. Photo: http://www.nbcnews.com/science/shark-swallowed-whole-even-bigger-shark-6C109457240
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